Kikoken aka Chun li has a plan

chun-li

#1

Hello, i thought it can be good to make a thread just about this move.

What is the idea ?
Talk about kikoken.


Framedata :

Kikoken LP : Startup 14 frames Recovery 30 frames
Kikoken MP : Startup 12 frames Recovery 29 frames
Kikoken HP : Startup 10 frames Recovery 31 frames
Kikoken EX : Startup 10 frames Recovery 38 frames


Blockstun 18 frames

Hitstun 22 frames


When someone get hit (block/hit) with a fireball, there is a hitstop of 8 frames.
So you have to add this to the blockstun or hitstun data.

If he do a focus, there is a hitstop anyway but this hitstop is reduce to 5 frames (in fact it stay 8 frames but your opponent can move after the 5th frames)


To begin i quote two guys ^^

If we can add some videos with the talk, it will be perfect


#2

Since this is here, let me elaborate on Kikoken on your opponent’s wakeup…

When Chun-Li scores a knockdown, a lot of times you are already sitting on charge. If you want to pressure your opponent, do MP Kikoken and time it so that it will hit them as they are getting up, then walk follow behind it. At that point your opponent has limited options, the safest of which is to block, which gives you more time to continue pressuring – I like using cr.HP xx Legs for pressure here, personally. I feel like the forward movement of cr.HP makes you more likely to reach your opponent if they are far away.

As you can imagine, having a fireball coming at them on wakeup severely limits their options. They could Focus, but if you read it you can tag them with a long poke like st.MP or st.HP. If they try to jump, they’ll get hit, opening them up for a juggle if your reactions are good (EX Legs, I think headstomps work too if you’re really close). The only other option is to use a move with startup invincibility or teleport, depending on the character.


#3

At the end of [media=youtube]xBxMBKHvNcs[/media] match, Efute does a Kikoken on knockdown, to put the opponent in blockstun to kill him with the chip dmg of Ultra 2.


#4

^I played around with this a bit. If the opponent blocks the Kikoken, there will be nothing they can do about U2.

However, any move with startup invincibility will go through the fireball, and if Chun is in dash animation, possibly cleanly tag her. Ultras in general don’t work (too much startup - Chun will be able to block after the freeze), but stuff such as Balrog’s EX Headbutt, Bison’s EX Scissors and EX Stomp, Sagat EX Tiger Uppercut, etc will nail her clean.

Not just for U2 chip damage, these moves can also put a damper on Chun’s wakeup games. If you think you’re going to pin them down with a Kikoken and rush in, you can find yourself on the receiving end of taking damage.

If you have the opponent in the corner and don’t have to dash forward, I think the setup will be a lot safer.


#5

Something I like to do that I copied from watching Nemo’s play is to throw a meaty kikouken and follow up with a hazanshu. If timed correctly this is a combo and a true block string. This probably has the same weakness as the kikouken, U2 sequence discussed above though.

Example,

[media=youtube]5XEa4d3p1rc&t=1m15s]YouTube - [2010/08/10[/media]

Something to be careful of when using kikoukens for zoning is to not accidentally back yourself into the corner. I think Nemo demonstrates awareness of this here. I noticed he, at most, uses a pair of kikoukens and after the second he always moves forward in some way.

Example,

[media=youtube]pyaJO1luBFQ&t=2m30s]YouTube - [2010/08/08[/media]


#6

To be honest i’m not a specialist of kikoken so it’s hard to say something on it.

Meaty kikoken on wake up, i’m not a fan because for me it’s just cheap damages and nothing else.
When i try to follow this kikoken most of the time i take a risk if my opponent mash something like Azrael said.

So what about a no meaty fireball ?

Purpose ? You invite your opponent to try something on his own wakeup instead of just block.
If he take this opportunity, you have at this moment to see if you can punish him.
For exemple he choose to jump.

If it’s a neutral jump, can i punish ?
If it’s a jump forward can i punish ?
If it’s a jump back can i punish ?

A no meaty fireball is more risky because you wait more so if your opponent has something to go through fireball you can be punish


#7

If you backthrow and they decide to block a meaty lp kikoken, you can wall jump after jumping backwards because of the pushback. :smiley: Very useless!

If you MP fireball after neutral throwing Blanka, you can combo into jump mk. I forgot what his options out were, but it’s pretty complicated for Blanka.


#8

Chunners is not an orthodox fireball character. You aren’t going to win fireball wars with Kikoken, nor are you going to be able to zone as well with it. I think a lot of mid-level Chun’s make the mistake of trying to base their ground game around Kikoken, which is not the greatest of ideas.

As you all should know, naked Kikoken at just under 3/4ths screen is a bad idea. Most characters can easily jump over it on reaction and get a free jump-in combo - and this is a practice often employed by shotos. Even if Chun recovers, at best case you are forced to block the jump-in and will be put on the defensive. If not a simple jump-in, many characters have ways around/through the Kikoken at this point - Zangief EX Hand, Dhalsim slide, Blanka slide or EX Ball, Balrog EX Dash Punches, Bison EX Scissors…the list goes on. Knowing this, many Chun players will throw the Kikoken and then back up/back dash to give them room for another. I think this is a bad idea for two reasons - one it puts Chun closer and closer to the corner, and two it wastes her great poke and mid-range game.

Rather, Kikoken is a situational tool, which lets Chun either cancel out fireballs she doesn’t want to deal with, or force the opponent into doing something from full-screen. Case in point - Let’s take Chun U1 vs Ryu. With U1 stocked, if Chun is sitting on charge, Ryu can’t safely throw a fireball - even at full screen, he risks eating dash ultra. This gives Chun the ability to throw Kikoken, and force Ryu to deal with it. The safest/easiest option for him would be to walk backwards and let Kikoken evaporate in front of him - the downside of this though is that it pushes him to the corner. He can counter-fireball, but depending on when he throws it he may be at risk to eat a Hasan Shu/S.RH/S.FP. Neutral and forward jumps also pose their own risks. It’s a simple yet elegant way to either push Ryu into the corner, or force him to do something that Chun can potentially react to and punish.

This idea used to work well against Bison. With no fireball to cancel it out, Bison would be forced to either move backwards, block, or jump. Head Stomp/Devil’s Reverse became extremely risky for him if he wasn’t successful in psyching out his Chun opponent. EX Scissor would go through the Kikoken, but if Chun managed to block she would get free punish from this as well. This dynamic is greatly changed in Super, thanks to Bison’s U2, and most Chun’s picking U2 in this matchup as well. Chun can no longer throw Kikoken, and Bison gets to whiff Devil’s Reverse all he wants to.

Honda is another good example of this. At just under 3/4ths screen, he can jump over Kikoken and get a clean punish. Even if his jump-in is late and Chun is able to block, this puts her in the defensive, where now she has to worry about potentially eating chip damage to HH block string, Oicho, or getting baited and eating a combo. However at full screen the only good answer Honda has for Kikoken is to either move backwards, or neutral jump fierce. Both options slowly drive Honda into a corner, where Chun will be able to safely chase him down, or keep him at ranges she wants him to be.

On knockdown, it can be used to help apply pressure. A well-timed Kikoken serves to “lock” the opponent in place, preventing them from doing some kind of wakeup. While EX Moves and Ultras will go through the Kikoken, these usually come with added risk/meter burning, so many players will be reluctant to use it unless absolutely necessary.


#9

Another titbit, yes attacking after a meaty block string is a bit risky, especially so with HS as if they have a decent reversal you are going to get hurt.

BUT, this can be an interesting way to bait out something to punish. Either through conditioning from earlier in the round, or through whiffed pokes, including LK HS. Players might twitch react to the move, miss you completely because you are still miles away, and be punished hard on the way down.

Also, don’t forget that EX kikoken exists. Good for messing up people’s timings, and also to get a bit of breathing space from its pushback if you are feeling the heat.


#10

Jump back Kikoken?


#11

Kikoken, kikoken, hasan-shu, kikoken, hyakuretsu, kikoken.


#12

Foo’ it’s a 2-bar connection. Quit building meter before you get us caught by the random jumpin-

BLAOW, jab, jab, crunch, reeheeheeheehee… NO ERSCAAAAPE!

…:bluu: