Lab Findings

Bunch of stuff from time in the lab. Ranges from punishes, to command grab setups, to crouch tech punishes.

Punishing meaty Psycho Punisher

Not a massive breakthrough, but something I got caught with recently after having my first ‘proper’ Bison match the other day. Seemed pretty dirty/clever and guaranteed to hit you the first time someone tries it on you. Quickly found a simple OS that deals with normal, crossup and whiffed Psycho Punisher. Just do a reversal roundhouse Chickenwing, it will have these results:

Meaty from the front - The Ultra whiffs, Fei Long hits with all three hits of Chickenwing, leading to any combo you want. Potential for around 50% punish.

Meaty crossup - Ultra is punished by roundhouse Flame Kick. Beats it clean.

Whiffed (for baiting) - Chickenwing comes out. Unless Bison is at fullscreen when he attempts this, the Chickenwing will still hit with at least the heel drop part and you get another free combo. If he is at fullscreen, Fei Long recovers and is still safe.

You can also buffer a Focus Cancel in with the input. This makes it so that if they do crossup, you FADC the Flame Kick and continue the combo with another Flame Kick, Chickenwing or Rekkashingeki, and it just doesn’t come out if it’s the other two scenarios.

Punishing Marseilles Roll

I think punishing this is absolutely key in the Abel match - you can’t let him get away with them - and the best/most damaging punish I have for this is to always react to it with roundhouse Chickenwing. The Chickenwing has a lot of active frame coverage and hitting with just one hit of it means a free combo, it makes sense to throw it out and not rely on waiting for him to finish the roll to punish. This also avoids any Roll > EX TT business and even if blocked puts Abel in a tricky situation.

Focus Crumple Reset

Sakura-style reset following a focus crumple. Probably best to do this after a lvl1 counter hit crumple or lvl2, mainly because of how much the ground combo is scaled after them.

Focus Crumple > pause > cr.short > Forward dash

You can change the timing on it to switch sides or not. Works midscreen and in the corner. Very ambiguous.

EX Tenshin Setups

EX Tenshin has the same range as Jab Tornado Throw (which is an increase), almost certain of it. Only difference is that the Tenshin has to connect with the lower part of the opponent’s hitbox, so characters that tend to lean forward it may whiff on, whereas Jab TT wouldn’t. Some new setups:

cr.short > cr.jab > EX Tenshin - Used to push you too far out of range if memory serves.
cr.forward > EX Tenshin - This probably worked before, but bizarre looking enough to work.
cr.short > cl.forward > EX Tenshin - If you properly link the first two normals as a one framer, the EX Tenshin will land. Not a combo, but can CH if linked right.

Whiff Close Jab Counter Hit Setups

I set the dummy (Ryu) on ALL BLOCK and was practicing links and finding EX Tenshin setups when I noticed that if you do cr.short > cl.jab, the dummy stands to block it. However, if you chain them together on the first possible frame, the cl.jab whiffs because the dummy can’t standing block it in time.

What this means is that you could probably use this as a CH setup on characters the st.jab would whiff on normally if they were hit with cr.short in their crouch stance. Here’s a couple I’d use:

cr.short > cl.jab (whiff) > cl.fierce xx Rekkaken
cr.short > cl.jab (whiff) > cr.strong (CH) > Rekkaken/Rekkashinken
cr.short > cl.jab (whiff) > cl.strong (CH) > Rekkashingeki
- Beastly!

Bison Scissor Kick Pressure

There’s a few ways to deal with a blocked Scissor Kick that can generally put Fei Long back on the offensive. I’ll list the most common pressure options for Bison and Fei’s potential counters after the blocked light Scissor:

st.roundhouse/st.forward - Can be beaten out be cr.jab buffered into jab Rekka. This is safe if blocked as well. If you’ve buffered the jab Rekka in and if Bison delays the st.roundhouse, the Rekka becomes a st.jab and can beat the roundhouse but hugely dependant on how Bison has timed and spaced the st.roundhouse. You can also use cr.forward to go under the roundouse and forward, but it’s a bit risky as a followup short Scissor will go over it. Bit of a 50/50 guess.

walk back > cr.strong - Can be beaten out by st.fierce. I don’t see many Bisons do this but it’s deffo what I would do with Bison to fish for CHs. Bit like Balrog’s cr.strong, so I treat it the same.

Follow-up short Scissors - Same as st.roundouse really, jab into jab Rekka. Cr.jab can whiff if scissor was done from max range, with the OS’d st.jab possibly trading/beating the Scissor Kick.

I’ll not list the other options because they’re either unsafe for Bison or break the pressure loop and put Fei back to a neutral position. I wouldn’t recommend Chickenwing at all to get out of it - Bison’s normals even when delayed can stuff them.

Tenshin Crouch Tech Counter

Don’t have a definitive list of who this works on yet, but…

There are two scenarios that this can be done from - a meaty or a safe jump after a sweep/throw - which makes it difficult to escape. Works on hit or block to varying degrees.


Meaty cr.strong > EX Tenshin

The distance is more the reason it works than anything, as the initial frames of Tenshin can avoid certain lows (and highs for that matter, but still working on that), so anyone crouch teching or even delayed crouch teching can get snatched by it. Really doesn’t matter how fast their cr.short is, it’s more about the ground it covers that determines if the setup works on that particular character.

Safe jump:

j.strong > cl.strong > EX Tenshin

Works the same as the above (with a 1 frame difference on block). Needs the jump-in to set up the correct amount of pushback.

Option Select Gekirinken

Meaty cr.short ~ Gekirinken

This is something to use against characters with slow starting, invincible reversals (Rufus, Bison, Balrog). The cr.short recovers in 8 frames, so you’re looking to hit with it’s last active frame ideally. If you buffer the Ultra in with the cr.short as an Option Select, the cr.short will whiff, their reversal will come out, and Gekirinken will counter.

There are others that I haven’t tested, but these are ones I know work.

EX Buffalo Headbutt
EX Scissors
EX Messiah Kick
Honda Buttslam (all versions, but EX is difficult to time)
EX Burning Kick

Neutral Throw > Safe jump j.strong ~ Gekirinken

This works on the same priniciple, and can work on more of the cast with slightly faster reversals.

Hmm. Certainly things to consider. Some of the stuff that you mentioned seemed sort of gimmicky, but the option selects for Abel and Bison are fascinating to me. I’ll have to mess around with this stuff.

either way, good work :tup:

I wouldn’t try countering reversals with Gekirinken due to reversals being armor breaking

Wrong I’m afraid. If the move is not armour breaking to begin with, then it’ll still get countered even on reversal. Case in point:



Here’s all the properties of Gekirinken, seeing as it’s still a cloudy subject for some.


[]Instant, 1-frame startup - Technically, he cannot be safe jumped when using this Ultra.
]Does 470 damage max - Will always be unscaled, that’s why it seems like it does loads of damage.
[]Counters high and low attacks.
]Cannot counter Armour Breaking or projectlie-type moves - If hit by armour breaker, Fei Long does not take Counter Hit damage/hit stun.
[]Reversals, that would normally break armour despite not being armour breaking (wakeup SRK, Honda Splash, etc), can be countered.
]Can be thrown.
[*]Expands hitbox, forcing moves that would whiff to make contact and be countered.

can you elaborate on the ultra ii option select, like button input and timing?

Do a cr.short and buffer in the Ultra as if you were two in one-ing it. That timing.

You get a cr.short > cl.short chain if they block the meaty, so it’s relatively safe.

I shouldn’t have to explain it really - stop being so lazy and use your brain.

This Gekirinken option select will lose to a backdash and leave you free for whatever punish the other guy might imagine, but still a viable finding.

One thing I’ve considered and will try to implement in my game is Gekirinken as an answer to the throw option select, as in pretend to go for a tick throw, ultra and catch their crouching short. In theory, this seems viable and has more chance of occuring the better your opponent is, but a guess still.

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but with the Gekirinken option select, we are still essentially guessing yes? We are using the meaty short to bait the reversal? or am I not understanding properly.

Reversal bait, yes. Do it with Rekkashingeki and it turns into a backdash bait and punish. That can also beat certain reversals, but not as many as the Gekirinken one.

Nice, I use Gekirinken for 85% of my match ups anyway.

It’s not really a guess though as if they block you win as well.

the way im trying to capitalise on tech throw spammers (like myself) with ultra 2 is with A cr.lp after your jumpin lets your get the range and its quick so they should still be spamming tech throw by the time your ultra 2 links on the end with you at -2 frames, ie having given them time to spam their low kick. If that made sense. Blocked is mostly what i land it off.

I’ve landed it a few times after a CW as after you’ve landed the CW - bnb, or CW throw a few times, you’ve conditioned them to predict that something is coming after the CW so they usually mash something out, very few people will just block again after a blocked CW.

I also find a very late empty jump Gekirinken nails a few folk.

yer or even just jump in with whatever, pause for a few frames, gekiren. I have a hard time hitting meaty with 2 active frames. Be nice if anyone knew a nice filler afer throw like backthrow forward jump 2nd is correct frames on normal wake up characters or something. After I land it a bit as well.
On the topic of lab findings, cross ups in the corner on crouching characters lets you land hp into super/finish so Im compiling a list of who it hits. Handy for footsies or after blocked fadc flame.
You some times need to do ex CW or they need to be just off the wall so it brings you down to hit them. I’ve done the first row if anyone else wants to do the bottom row?

Not really - it’s essentially a counter hit setup to interrupt delayed crouch tech. What you’ve described isn’t a meaty by definition, unless by startup you mean the opponent’s getup.

It’s also safe from 3f reversals and 3f jabs/shorts if performed correctly.

for abels roll, you can command grab him out of it… in which most cases is very good especially for corner game… or starting game…

Meant to reply to this one originally but couldn’t be arsed till now. This attitude of certain things being ‘gimmicks’ and things only working once - if it works, it bloody works and that’s the bottomline. Also, the command grab setups (which are essentially tick throws) are there to highlight the FACT that EX Tenshin does now have more range, a glaring oversight from many a player.

Adon Safe Jump Setup

Only two situations allow Fei Long to properly safe jump Adon from an untechable. From a sweep knockdown, even an immediate jump-in can be AA’d with an EX Rising Jaguar. This is because Adon’s getup off of his back is significantly faster than his getup from a face down position. His face down getup, which comes from landing a neutral throw or Gekirinken, can be safe jumped fine. He can be safe jumped from off his back though, from either:

[]Rekkashingeki, or
The backthrow setup needs an immediate step back (roughly one unit on the Training Mode grid), followed by a jump-in. The jump-in from here is meaty so it will stuff short RJ, and depending on when you hit the button will determine a crossup or frontal hit. I reccommend j.strong for the ambiguity and steep angle on the hitbox, but also because even a relatively early hit can still be comboed from.

Early j.strong = crossup
Late j.strong = frontal

You can also use j.forward and j.short, but the hitbox, hitstun and ambiguity of the jump-in isn’t as good in my opinion.

Adding to safe jump, I’ve seen Mago after a backthrow do forward dash towards opponent>neutral jump j.HK. It worked on a Sagat, but not sure about other characters. Could use more testing, also against Ryu with doing an empty jump.

Amazing stuff neville! I’d say roughly 70% of Gamerbee’s wins at EVO were because people didn’t know the timing to safe jump him, thus eating the reversal Rising Jaguar. E also had beautiful option selects (like Daigo showed) and I remember him getting either Mike Ross or Cen (one of the Honda players) 3 times in a row when he attempted wake up headbutt.

The only problem is that the only realistic setup for a safe jump for Fei is his backthrow, which only comes every so often. I thought about adding, cl.lp,, to my game, similar to what Ryu and Balrog do with they sweeps, but that’s two 1-frame links which is way beyond my capabilities (and also the fact that a lot of times you’ll get instead). I have seen Mago do that a few times though.

Unfortunately, it is also character specific. Only works on the larger members of the cast, such as Gouken and Abel, that sort of large. And in most cases, only works when preceded by a deep jump-in.

It’s only a single 1-frame link in there, the jab into strong. Tricky to plink because if you do it too early you end up chaining a jab or a short (depending on what you’re plinking with) after the st.jab.