Learning from the AI?


#1

I said this once in the past to a friend and he laughed me out the room. Is learning from the AI viable in this game at least? I mean if not… sucks for me since I rather play against myself than the less-than online mode right now. Obviously the AI wont think like a real person or anything but two things that believe making ai practice useful:
-flawless reaction
-CPU fudging

I more or less use the AI to see if they have measures to counter my tactics, in which case I use them against real people. Thats not to say they are perfect in that respect, I have yet to see the AI XFC to negate blockstun, but the basic concept of clean punishment is apparent by playing against the computer. I had the Wolverine AI on very hard trying to wavedash in between Amaterasu’s lightning bolts in Okami shuffle and actuallygot pretty close. lol.

There are some little things that I learned from the cpu that wouldnt probably have me depressed later down the road since I dont see a lot of people doing them. One of them is wavedashing underneath flight or airdashing into a jumping throw.

Oh course the real issue is the same thing that the computer is good for, flawless reaction. They dont fall for ambiguous, crossups, they pushblock at the right number of hits and they counter with impeccable timing. I think for keepaway-style teams the computers training mode is great because they will unforgivingly attempt to push their way in.

And let me pre-face that I dont think the ai is “difficult.” Also playing the HARD ai is better than VERY HARD, the latter just does extended comboes, tag-out spam and super counters light blockstrings which is really ridiculous.


#2

I think there’s something to be learned there. You can’t execize strategy designed for a human, but like you say you can deffinately use it for improving your reaction times or fishing for ideas. I used to practice against the CPU in 3S to practice hit confirms, as the CPU opponents are pretty much always set to some form of random block and as long as I turtled instead of trying to mix the CPU up, I had a perfect enviroment for doing so on a “moving” opponent. I also used to practice things like punnishing normals; it can work of you know what you’re doing.


#3

press any button to eat an instant super/ultra/hyper combo

what’s to learn in that


#4

Thanks for reading bro.


#5

I think unless you’re very vigilant, you’ll fall into more bad habits fighting the CPU than gaining any positive reinforcement on your game. If online is an option just do that. Double if you have someone readily available to do local with.

And that instant super punish crap they do is stupid annoying.


#6

I agree 100% with you… I play the the computer in training mode on Hard to practice finishing combos and learning the way chars high, low and overhead attacks look to block accordingly I am still no master at the game but humans online aren’t perfect and I put in my head that the computer usually attacks without regard for their health meter, they will have one pixel of health left and not drop a combo because the computer is “sure” of what its doing. A human player will have some type of panic and/or hesitation usually which effects what they do.

When you are just using training mode to practice your combos and stuff its great cause if you pull it off on a computer You know that there is no way for a human to get out of it… at least that is the way it seems right now.


#7

Combos mean shit. Overall it simply depends on how good players or AI is. In MvC3 AI is pretty weak because it falls for the same things over and over but it is possible to learn things if the AI is better then you or most people.


#8

Nothing to be learned from the AI since all it does is read your button inputs and respond with inhuman reactions.


#9

So you are saying that Dropping combos over and over is OK and doesn’t result in losses? the Inhuman reactions they have give me a lil more confidence going into a match because if i know how you use my moves and have them in muscle memory then in a Match it is easier to mix up. Playing against the computer’s inhuman reactions in this game helps me because I know that if I can punish the computers move correctly due to the characters being in its recovery frames then I am punishing right because I didn’t get some stupid cancel into hyper … plus making sure that I am not in a position to get hyper’d when I stick out a move because if it can be done the computer WILL do it… i.e. Wesker or Master’s Counter Hyper… they can’t counter assists and projectiles now can they … training yourself to play on the characters weaknesses is something I learn in Training mode on the Hard Setting. I always hit random right now just to learn what to do when I see a certain move come out… what is the safest thing to do, ya know. Cause if I see it in a match then I know what to do. I didn’t forget that you also have to pay attention to what assists the “Human” player has and how and when they use the assist to know how to deal along with reading moves of the point character correctly.

P.S. - So far this is the only game that I have used training mode set to fight back in a game and it helped. I played alot of Super and no it doesn’t help in that game. not to me anyway.


#10

I almost always set the computer to fight simply because momentum of a moving battle can put the opponent in a position you don’t normally have them in when they are just standing and this cause you to drop combos if you don’t get used to the variables in positioning.

Practicing against inhuman reactions is not helpful because it will simply make you too defensive in a real match instead of taking advantage of situations where actual human speed reaction times permit only a psychic reaction to respond to your mix-up, crossup, traps, resets, whatever. That way you get a lot of your damage in until your opponent finally “downloads” you and you have to stop being so predictable. The computer does not cash in on you being predictable. It simply dice rolls on the perfect counter for anything you ever do. Not helpful.


#11

I focus more on completing combos on a moving character than anything else because I can do all the combos I want on a character standing there but if i can’t do it in the midst of pressing other buttons to move around it doen’t do me any good in a fight… Online Matches … mostly in ranked is worse for trying to find out what punishes what because by the time I figure it out I take a loss and the matchup system is STUPID. SSF4 matchup system is WAY BETTER. I get matched up with people that out class me like 5th Lord to my fighter/9th_Ranger and watch my guy get combo’d around the screen … doesn’t do much good for learning.
And don’t say learn to block, because blocking is fine but if I am not ready to retaliate with a combo to at least let them know that they have to give me a lil respect then I’m, just gonna take high-low mixups to a player that doesn’t drop combos.


#12

I just practice combos in training mode. IMO, the AI teaches you too many bad habits.


#13

go to the “Network simulation” on the menu and bring that down one notch…


#14

which bad habbits in particular?


#15

I find the AI useful to play to get combos or certain reactions into muscle memory. When you do something in practice you can be perfect and it’s under 0 pressure; that time spent learning the combo doesn’t translate as easily into real play. When you play AI though you can do things over and over while the AI actually reacts to you. It allows you the time to get comfortable with using stuff under some form of actual pressure.

Fighting the CPU is definitely useful, pretty much in the ways you said. It isn’t going to make you better against people but it can help you get comfortable with your own character and allow you to integrate stuff you read about much more easily. If you’re really new the AI will definitely teach you things but beyond that it’s still useful. It’s dumb enough to let you take the time to get comfortable with new stuff you’re working on in a ‘real’ match of sorts but not lifeless like a training dummy. I would say without a doubt once you know a combo you should practice vs the AI, not a dummy. Practicing vs the AI will get you used to doing it at weird angles or odd times or in reaction to things the dummy won’t do. The more confident you are in landing those combos or punishing the more damage you’re actually going to do in a real vs match.


#16

playing against the AI is ok(even if you max out the difficulty). I still think it’s better to play vs someone.


#17

While there is no replacement for playing against another decent player, I do have to say that most random online games (i.e. people not from my Friends List) are utter ass. It is not that I am a total badass, but rather that the game is new and non-fighting game fanatics are still trying to compete. They are easy to figure out and a lot easier to overcome.

Now, as for the AI on Very Hard, I believe it has its merits due to the fact that it reads your damn inputs and reacts with superhuman speed. Where others see this a bullshit, I see it as a great way to find holes in my game. Things that work against human opponents are easily broken apart by the AI, and, while not many people can actually do what the AI is doing, it is good to know that it can be done. So, not only does the AI help you nail your combos under simulated pressure, it also forces you to play a lot safer since it really hammers home to point that damage is (almost) out of control in this game. You cannot blindly rush down, and, instead you need to make sure you are covered at all times in order to properly open up your opponent.

An example from my experiences:
I come from MvC2 for the past 11 years, and I have certain metal habits that I have developed…this is not so much a button issue as it is one of timing. My mental timing for punishing an assist or a tagged-in character waas stuck on MvC2 time, and any punch I would attempt would be blocked or wiffed. From playing the AI, I learned to look for an incoming assist and punish as fast as possible as well as make damn sure that I down the assist so that I can get one of the characters out of the way. This may sound really simple, but the psychic AI helped me learn that taking out an assist, even if it costs 2 meters, is usually worth it.

my 2 cents.


#18

I would say it teaches you to play a CPU rather than a human. The CPU is impregnable unless it allows you in by randomly not blocking or the rare time it whiffs. There are assist set ups you can do to mitigate that factor some, however.

The bad habit is getting used to an opponent that plays very different from a human.


#19

Agree with training your reflexes on AI. I think the AI is decent for an opponent who just does stuff rather than a good thing to practice against. When you do get a hit in, you work your combo practice in as if you were in a match, because it is somewhat pressured compared to training mode. The main AI benefit is putting you into a pressure situation where it tests whether you will just throw things out there, or keep your cool when being pressured.

The bad thing about AI is that you learn what the AI is weak against - it will always be weak against particular things, and you learn that whiffing certain moves of your own causes a certain reaction in the AI - almost all the time. Human players don’t do this, and are unlikely to react to a situation the same way like an AI does. So if you’re trying to learn how to open up an opponent’s defenses… AI is not the way forward.


#20

Ah, I think I was not as clear as I wanted to be…this is what I meant to say:

The AI is not a good way to gauge what a human opponent will do but rather what can be done. The AI in MvC3 will do a lot of 1-2 frame stuff that will blow up a strategy that I otherwise thought was good. Does this mean that my human opponent will be able to do this? Not necessarily, and really not while playing online, but they are good things to be aware of within the game. It is kind of like how joo and magnetro showed us stuff about the MvC2 engine that really was not applicable to your everyday match, but sometimes knowing more about the engine, how it works, and very exact punishes can give you the upper hand.

I hope that made more sense.