Low Ping Shutter 3D display

#1

I’ve already got 2 TVs in my main gaming room. I have a Playstation 3D Display which is a 3D display and had an excellent-at-the-time ping time of 33 ms ping, or about 2 frames in 60 FPS mode.

The other TV is a CRT TV for retro games and light gun games.

I heard that if ping were 4 ms or less, you can play a decent defensive blocking game in modern Fighting games from Xbox 360/PS3/Wii and up. With my PS3DTV, the best I can do is punishing going to the well once too often.

I would get a new low ping monitor, but the problem is finding one with shutter-based 3D. It seems like most of the 3D monitors still available have polar-based 3D, and I don’t want that. Mom gets too many 3D headaches.

What prompted this is the Collectorvision Phoenix. I heard it’s a great neo-Coleco. It has something which would cost $100 to add on separately, the Super Module. The only “problem” is HDMI output.

I understand it’s not the fault of the device or the HDMI signal itself which causes ping time. I heard the 2 biggest culprits are resolution changes and actual draw time on the screen. And retro games don’t feel right on an HDMI TV due to resolution conversions, plus some don’t have old resolutions, let alone hookups.

I just want to know if there is such a beast as a low-ping time 3D 1080p monitor that can do 240 Hz for 3D 24 fps movies that includes retro hookups.

I suggested a way to turn any possible TV or monitor into a 3D monitor on Blu-Ray.com and Sony.com . It was possible with the Sega Master System Sega Scope 3D. You didn’t need to buy a special TV to get Sega Scope working. A technology that works like that that already exists would also be cool too. I believe that will give 3D movies and TV a shot in the arm.

There is something called a NVidia 3D something, but the question is, is that a truly external, self-contained box, or does it only work in PCs?

I’m looking for something that works outside of PCs. My dad could use that to turn his 4K TV he’s eventually going to buy into a 4K3D TV. And can work on his current TV.

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#2

I would just abandoned the 3D display. There isn’t enough out there to take advantage of it

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#3

Yes I see there are plenty of gaming monitors and I can pick one based on my budget and desires.

The only problem is I’ll have 3 TVs in my basement, one for retro games (the 24 inch CRT TV), one for modern games (the new gaming monitor), and one for 3D movies (the Playstaiotn 3D TV). I’m having enough problems with 2. I’m trying to replace modern 3D TV with a Modern 3D TV that is way lower ping. By the way, do any of these gaming monitors have a retro input for everything from Atari 2600 to Wii? Component? S-Video? Composite? NTSC RF? I understand they won’t work for light gun games, but for everything else, they shoudl work right.

I’ve got way too many 3D movie to abandon my collection.

Plus I predict 3D will make a comeback, not to the point of craze like the leadup to the Avatar home release, but to a point where there is no 3D HATRED.

The 3D craze may have died down after Avatar’s home release, but most people were take it or leave it. I’ll get mine eventually when I buy a new TV…

Until…

When 3D Hatred became a thing

the 3D Super Bowl. It got decent press as the first broadcast 3D show. The problem came when people found out that the format of 3D being used was “side-by-side half”, and the main consequence of that is 2D viewers would get off the rabbit ears 2 half-width pictures of the left eye and right eye perspective. So even though the signal is electornicaly ATSC compatible, meaning you don’t have to make a new TV standard to broadcast in 3D, it’s not 2D compatible, meaning granny is going to look at the screen, se a 3D broadcast, and think either the TV or the broadcast signal is on the fritz.

Basically people found out that year, if you didn’t have a 3D TV, you were going to miss the Super Bowl. THE NFL was in the position to either tell 30% of the people they can’t show off their new toy or tell 70% of the people that they will get a coded 3D signal which looks awful in 2D, therefore sucks to be you. They chose the first.

My how different this could have turned out if the broadcasters would have instead chosen a standard of a 30 hz x 2 eye signal that will be backwardly compatible with 30 hz x 1 eye.

details

If you want to watch just like you did, do nothing but tune in. The ATSC 1.0 signal would have seen it as 30 hz x 1 eye. Buy the 1.1 tuner and 3D TV, get it with 30 hz x 2 eyes. It’s not much of a sacrifice, most stuff is shot in either 24 Hz or 30 Hz anyway.

Also dad got a TV a year before Sony had 3D TVs. It would have been nice to add an external adapter to get 3D like one would add 3D to an already existing great 2D TV. If only such a technlogy existed…

It Does

… Anyone remember the Sega Master System Sega Scope 3D? (Except if you lived in Brazil, you’d probably hear crickets, because 95% of US GAMING households were NES households, about 5% were Atari 7800 households, and 2% were Sega Master System households, with a lot of overlap. [Meaning it’s rare to be a US kid and be childhood friends with a Master System ONLY household and a 7800 ONLY household, but I beat the odds.]) Well it used shutter technology. And the best thing is, you don’t have to buy a Special Sega TV, or any brand TV with a Sega 3D Port. It worked with literally EVERY TV at the time that was made. Jamal just had to cary over a Master system, a controller, the games and TV hookup, and he said it looked even better on our 1985 25 inch Trinitron with composite inputs (he had RF, Luckily I had a composite hookup for the Genesis, and it works with the SMS) Everyone else either had Red and Cyan 3D or Pulfrick 3D, if anything.

But one thing has changed since the days of the SMS and CRT TV: sub microsecond ping times were no longer a given, and usually TVs were assumed to have 50-100 ms ping times. So a practical solution to sync glasses with the TV wasn’t invented yet…

Soluiotn 1

… Until they made the ARC signal, which syncs your sound system with the TV so you don’t get the “Rita Repulsa Effect” on everything you watch. You could use that same Arc signal to sync an external 3D glasses syncher and ATSC 1.1 tuner.

Retrofit solution 2

But do you have a pre-ARC TV, then I got another solution: Light Gun Synching. A light gun game computer “where” you point the gun baseed on “when” it senses light coming into the barrel. Just like the CRT TV, it has sub-micorsecond timing. So instead of using the exactness to determine the location you’re aming at, why not flasha 60 hz alternatig Black and White signal for about 10 frames, so it can sense when the left frame (black) and right frame (white) will appear.

3D segregation problems

You have to be careful about offering 2 versions of a movie, liek DVD did with Widescreen and Pan and Scan copies. Usually there was a shortage of one (WS) and an surplus of the other (PS). Likewise if you premiumize something, like you did 3D by adding an extra $5 to the price, you give people an incentive to economize.

I personally think, if you do it right, with 3D/2D combo discs, ones that let either the director or the user determine which of the 2 eyes they want as their 2D Eye, Left or Right (People rightfully complain about the “left eye default” especially considering 2/3 of the population is right eyed. PLus if the director was right eyed, like 2/3 are, wouldn’t the director be framing a 3D shot with a strong right eye in mind, therefore the defualt should be the right eye?) would make 3D a standard feature, but one that doesn’t intrude on 2D watching. That way you wouldn’t underproduce 3D movies and have it so everyone buys one copy. Plus you can have 4K3D/4K2D disc.

Why people complained about 3D and not other advancements

No one with a 2 speaker TV complains about Dolby or DTS surround features. No one complains about closed captions within a broadcast, and if they misheard something or are trying to decipher an accent, it would come in handy. In the 80s no one complained about Stereo TV, even though most sets were Mono. In the 60s no one complained about Color TV, even though most TVs were black and white. Why? Because all those new advancements were backwards compatible with the old tech.

3D wasn’t like that. But then again Color had its false start with UHF before the 60s. UHF TV Shows needed a special color UHF RGB TV. Black and white VHF TVs couldn’t display UHF content. Color UHF TVs couldn’t display VHF TVs. It was considered a rich boy’s toy. Very few people heard of color TV before the 60s. It was when NBC broadcast in B/W compatible color that most people heard of color, and that’s when the concept of a chroma difference that fed off a luma signal came about. it makes color signals B/W compatible.

I one day envision 3D being something like Dolby/DTS surround. It’s they are in the media, but if you don’t utilize it, you can still basically watch a show. You just won’t get the extra bells and whistles.

A pet peeve based on using surround gaming headsets

(even though I care about which format they use. I prefer Dolby, because all surround headphones, even, ironically enough, DTS X Headphones have a problem decoding DTS media. It first has to be fed in Dolby to get a signal. I understand most people don’t use surround headphones, but that’s another gap the market is missing. Maybe I’ll get some sympathy if enough fight gamers use headphones and find it as much of a problem as I do. Upstairs, I either get 2-track or silence on DTS movies, becuase I’m using a non-game machine for Blu Rays. Thankfully all TV is Dolby.)

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#4

You can hardly find new 3D TVs anymore.
The novelty in the market wore off.

Nvidia dropped 3D support in favor for raytracing.

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#5

At its peak between the Avatar home release when it peaked, and the bothced super bowl, when it was discovered you couldn’t watch it in 2D Households with at least 3D set was 30%. Then 3D hatred became en vogue.

I could have told you premiumizing 3D was not a way to sell 3D.

The one thing that didn’t happen that couldn’t have made it more popular were external 3D adapters which can turn ANY TV into a 3D TV. There’s precedent for it. The Sega Master System Sega Scope 3D.

The only thing, as far as I can tell, that stopped it was ping time affecting synching issues.

I came up with a way you can add 3D to ANY 3D and have it sync right anywhere from 1 ms to 1000 ms of ping. Either Use the ARC signal or use a light gun used for synching purposes instead of aiming purposes.

If that happens, then, if movie makers are smart, make 3D/2D combo discs. The 2D owners wouldn’t notice it, but the 3D owners would look for a hidden “trade name” to indicate such a disc.

Kind of like a secret handshake, assuming it’s true that 2D owners would refuse a 3D disc, even if it plays well in 2D out of some hatred on principle for 3D. That’d be like refusing a movie because it’s in DTS or Dolby. Or refusing to buy a colorized movie, despite it having a Black and White mode. And just like Dolby and/or DTS is in every movie made in DVD format or high, so would 3D be on every disc that has a 3D version.

Finally TV needs to incorporate a 30 Hz x 2 eye mode that’s 30 hz x 1 eye compatible.

And the reason why you make 3D TV an add-on, just like surround sound, is because “everyone” has a TV. Not everyone has surround sound. But surround sound won’t be dead. it wil be in a separate department, just like 3D processors.

Finally what was the most popular 3DTV among those who said “I want a 3D TV… what are my options?”? The answer is for those seeking the 3D format , the Playstaiton 3D TV was the number one model. It was cheap when it came out. It went down to $200 before being closed out, and most places sold out of them. There were a couple more popular models, but those people mostly said “3D Why Not?” No one said “3D Hell No” until the botched super bowl. But among those who said “3D Hell Yeah.” the Playstaiton Monitor s the best selling 3D SKU.

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#6

That required a CRT screen though, The Nintendo Famicom had the same gimmick.

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#7

When I was trying to install itunes on windows 7 it was not installed at all so please help me to fix the problem. I was to install it in my system as iTunes is the best music player.

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#8

Is the only reason why it worked with a CRT is because the timing was dummy-proof with its low ping?

If yes, then my solution of either an ARC signal or a light gun reading the timing SHOULD solve it.

If no, does anyone know the reason why the technology of turning any 2D TV into a 3D TV
works on a CRT TV but not on a modern TV?

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#9

Hello @stevewillam007. Nice to meet you.

It just seems kind of weird that your first post is about iTunes on a topic that is marked as Low Ping Shutter 3D Display.

I have no comment on how to help you, by the way, since I use Macintosh and iTunes is built into the Mac OS X.

If you are seriously looking an answer for your problem, you should hit the “New Topic” button within the Tech Talk category, and type in a topic title which will attract people who may have the answer you’re looking for.

Also the primary point of Shoryuken.com is fighting games and the digital fight sticks that are apparently considered specialized video game equipment. It’s named after the japanses word (phrase perhaps?) Ryu and Ken say when they throw a Dragon Punch, and the symbol of the website suggests the move combination to activate such a Dragon Punch. Asking this as your first shoryuken question on a topic designated as something else seems a little off topic. At least when I started posting, my main concern was my fight stick.

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#10
  1. You have to stop using the term “ping” for monitors. Ping refers to the round-trip time for a message to come back for networking. There’s none of that on displays.

  2. I can’t say for sure, but my experience with people who are for 2D refusing to buy 3D media isn’t a blind hatred for 3D, but rather that the 3D versions of DVDs/Blu-Rays simply costed more for functionality/features that they had no use for.

  3. I really don’t see how an external add-on for current 2D displays can “add” 3D. From my understanding, 3D necessitates two separate images, either flickered between the two images alternatingly, or polarized differently; neither of which can be done with an “add on”.

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#11
  1. Pardon me delay. I jsu use the term ping becuase modern networked gamers can relate to it better, even though Technically ping is 2-way and delay is 1-way. The word just conveys te fact to newbies better.

And if one were to look deeper it could be conceived as two-way, first what you see in reaction affects your move on the fight stick, and then the other way is seeing your fight stick input result back on the TV. So in a sense, since Ping is two-way, Ping can be thought of as TV-to-Joystick-to-TV. An Obi-Wan “correct from a certain point of view” statement.

  1. No one complains that Dolby or DTS s added when they buy a DVD for a 2-speaker TV. If the second eye can be added in all media, where 2D viewers are oblivious to the extra eye, kind of like how 2-speaker users are oblivious to the Dolby/DTS in terms of their practical enjoyment, no problems. If 3D was that way, then no one would gripe about it.

3D Hatred is big for 2 reasons. one is the Blu Ray cost $5 extra with 3D, because there’s an assumption that such a 3D/2D combo disc is bad for some reason I don’t see. And Two is the first attempted 3D broadcast was in “side-by-side half”, which is technically ATSC compatible, but totally ruins it for a 2D audience. People rallied saying it would make their show unwatchable. And rightfully so.

Since most stuff is shot in 30 fps, maybe a 30 fps x 1 eye mode on 2D TVs and a hidden 30 fps x 2 eye mode for 3D with the proper decoder would have worked.

People encode Dobly 5.1 in TV broadcasts all the tme and no one complains. There’s no Surround Sound Haters. Just like in the 60s there were no Color Haters because it was B/W compatible.

  1. I believe you’re half right. It would be more expense than it’s worth to polarize a non-polarized TV.

But the Sega Master System proved you can send alternate frames to ANY TV. You just need an external device to sort out the Ls and Rs.

But I don’t know whether delay time causing synching problems was the only thing preventing “add your own 3D”.

If it is, then for a cost cheaper than one new particular TV, you can add 3D to ANY TV, even the one you currently have, if you implement my solutions of either an ARC signal or a sub-microsecond light gun.

If it isn’t, then could someone enlighten us why the Sega Scope 3D solution wouldn’t work with modern TVS if it’s not problems factoring in the delay when synching?

Of course to be compatible with 60 Hz TVs, it needs to be a 30 Hz x 2 Eye format. And people say 30 FPS is more realistic than 60. “Less is more”?

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#12

You can side step the whole technology restrictions with Anaglyph 3D which is typically Red and Blue. You have a Red image and a Blue Image. This works with any display ever, and even Print media. But you will lose color information because of it.

There also the Polarized 3D system where the two images has their light polarized and polarized filters restrict the light to each eye, this works in the same mechanics as Anaglyph 3D. Polarization works better on CRTs or Protectors than it does with Flat displays.

About LCD Screens and Polarized 3D

Until 2011, home 3D television and home 3D computer primarily used active shutter glasses with LCD or plasma displays. TV manufacturers (LG, Vizio) have introduced displays with horizontal polarizing stripes overlaying the screen. The stripes alternate polarization with each line. This permits using relatively inexpensive passive viewing glasses, similar to those for movies. The principal disadvantage is that each polarization can display only half as many scanning lines.

Basically you need to have a LCD screen designed for Polarized 3D, the Downside is you only get half the Resolution.

Many LCD screens, as well as the Sega Master System and the Nintendo Famicom’s 3D sytsems used Active Shutter Lens 3D glasses.

Active shutter 3D system
It works by only presenting the image intended for the left eye while blocking the right eye’s view, then presenting the right-eye image while blocking the left eye, and repeating this so rapidly that the interruptions do not interfere with the perceived fusion of the two images into a single 3D image.

This can technically work with any screen type. The downside is you half what ever your screens FPS at. So with a 60hz display you only see 30hz or 30 fps.
There nothing to do with delay (or as you wrongly call it Ping). With Gaming, if you want 60fps video, your display needs to be at 120hz (or higher, like 240hz). And it had Zero to do with CRTs being slower, the SegaScope 3-D Glasses and Famicom 3D System actually ran at 100hz, giving an appearance of 50hz to gamers.

LCDs had some time before models of LCD displays can support 3D as the individual LED pixel response time was too slow (the time it took for each pixle to change from fully white to fully black).
Also Response time has nothing to do with Refresh Rate. Also LCD screens that are Active Shutter Lens capable also has to have it’s Black-light strobe to account for the limitations of pixel response time.

Also the Display has to be in sync with the Shutter glasses for the effect in some way, ether tethered with a cable like the Sega SMS and Famicom 3D systems, or with something like RF or Infrared for modern Active Shutter Displays.

There just no way to nicely convert a bog standard LCD Display to being 3D without some drawbacks.

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#13

Thank you for sharing the information. There are also 2 forms of 3D which are 2D compatible, but have other side effects.

Pulfrick 3D (one clear lens and a slightly grey-tined lens) works al long as things from left to right are moving from the foreground to background. Super Mario 64 s an example of a game where the perspective lends itself well to Pulfrick 3D.

THere’s also Chromadepth, which uses color separating prism lenses. The only way this gets any real cool effects is if red elements are consdiered close up, and blue lelements are far back. The type of stuff that work well with it are bright, unshaded, color-blended, artificially colored illustrations, so don’t expect stuff with real-world color to show up well.

The problem with anaglyph is thah it ruins colors. The problem with Pulfrich is that it’s very limiting on composing shots. The problem with Chromadepth is that the shade of color conveys depth information, so only artificially colored items work well.

Polar and shutter are the 2 best forms of 3D for realistic filming. Polar’s consequence is you lose half the resolution. Shutter’s consequence is you lose half the frames of animation.

The main reason why Shutter is easier to add to exisiting TVs is because the Sega Scope 3D works.

Most TV shows film in 30 FPS x 1 eye. The broadcast standard for HDTV is 60fps. So in theory, if you can make a TV that doesn’t have the 3D built in to look at it as a 30 Hz x 1 eye broadcast, but make it so a 3D TV sees it as a 30 Hz x 2 eye broadcast, then you have solved the problem of the Super Bowl. The Super Bowl was presented in side-by-side half, which is 2D compatible. A 30 Hz x 2 Eye presentation would have the consequence of being a perfectly good 30 Hz x 1 eye 2D Show. A lot more 2D friendly than Side-by-Side Half.

The main issue why you can’t add an external device to do synching with a modern TV is delay. If you have a 30 fps x 2 eye format in alternate frames (60 fps= 16 ms/f) , if you have a delay of 4 ms, normally it would be compensated for on the TV itself, because the TV can sense it’s own output being displayed so the TV tells the shutter to sync up with the display. But if an external shutter device cannot communicate with the output of the TV, the shutters go off instantly, and have the the front 4 ms of the 16 ms be shuttered on the wrong eye.

ARC delays the audio to synch up with the video, which is perfect for Movie and TV watching. It does it by sending audio back at the appropriate delay for the TV.

Maybe ARC doesn’t so glasses syncing yet. But I think that if you have a sub-microsecond light gun, just like the kind used on the NES Zapper and all CRT Light Guns, would give the syncher the information needed to sync right, by reading the TV. Instead of using the individual dots drawn to say where you’re aiming, because all pixels are drawn at the same time, you just need to send an alternate Black and White flash for .1 seconds to synch up the external glasses processor with the current TV. and the device will be synched up accurate to the nearest microsecond or smaller time unit.

That is probably the main reason why there are no such thing as external shutter glasses, except for the Sega Scope 3D, is that there is less than a microsecond delay on the SMS to a CRT TV that there is no delay processing, therefore a simple 3.5 mm wire can be used to sync it. No computer brains are needed to synch it.

It’s basically an optical ARC signal for glasses synching. The only thing the glasses need are the timing of when to close and open each eye.

My point is that the TV draws all the pixels at the same time, and an external device just needs to know when to show left and when to show right. It’s a lot easier to synch a glasss timer witha screen by reading the screen optically than it is to replace a screen with a polarized screen. A shutter TV can be added to any screen, you just ned to synch it. If you’re going to add a polarized screen, you might as well just buy a Polar 3D TV pre-built rather than hire someone to add it.

There is a Nvidia device. The problem is it requires a PC, and cannot synch up consoles with 3D via external input. If there were only some device which can synch without requiring a PC.

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