M. Bison Frustrations

sakura

#1

I have just finished reading the majority of help topics regarding M.Bison in this forum and I feel like I didn’t learn much. Sorry for opening up another discussion about a character that has been discussed numerous times, but I guess I just want to confirm some ideas about him.

First, I want to discuss throws. I don’t know the exact frame data but I do recall Bison having the best throw in the game. So everytime I throw, it gets teched and everytime I don’t throw, I get thrown. A possible scenario is when hes jumping toward me and I neutral jump and we both fall at the same time --> teched throw. Or when I throw a hadoken and he jumps over it --> throw. Or when I let out a st. RH --> he focuses --> throw. Or when he lets out a st. RH --> I focus --> teched throw. Do cr. lks and cr. lps beat this out? It is not working for me because I always get thrown. I even try to neutral jump when he whiffs throw but he recovers fast enough before my nj rh comes out. Similarly, If i nj rh on the way up, I get punished. It’s a win-win for him.

Second, I want to discuss anti air. I’m sure everyone knows the strength of Sakura’s cr.fp. I just want to confirm what beats out his headstomp and devils reverse.

Headstomp --> cr.fp, nj mp, nj mk, nj hp, dash back --> bnb
EX headstomp --> dash back–> bnb? (do you have enough time?), does standalone cr.fp beat this?
Devil’s reverse --> cr.fp, focus --> bnb
EX devil’s reverse --> cr.fp?
Empty devil’s reverse --> tech throw, do you have enough time for bnb(st.fp,lktatsu,crhp,extatsu)

Speaking of air, is there any way to beat his j.fp when you’re in the air already? And it also feels like his j mpx2 has so much priority as well. A quick j.tatsu maybe?

Third, I want to rant about how horrible her hadoken is. Headstomp beats it, psycho crusher beats it, ex scissors beats it. Now with his new ult, I’ve even seen some Bisons U2 from across the screen. Yeah, you can charge it, but I don’t really use it effectively. Only thing I can think of using hadoken is to bait a focus and EX otoshi. That’s it.

Fourth, shouoken. I am pretty good at doing the crmk–> heavy shouoken. However, I feel like it only works when hes focusing. Most of the time it gets blocked/punished. Either that or I’m wasting two bars to escape. Wakeup shouokens get punished by cr.lk–> scissor. EX shouokens are 50/50. They either are successful and do the full damage or gets traded for the first part, then gets blocked/punished in the second.

Fifth, Sakura’s mixup game. I feel like the core strength of Sakura is in her mixup game via EX tatsu. However, vs bison it is completely non-existant. His wakeup is ridiculous.

  1. EX psycho crusher --> completely safe
  2. EX headstomp --> invincibility frames (someone want to explain how to punish this?)
  3. EX devils reverse --> invincibility frames(same as above)
  4. Teleport back --> how do you punish this if you are jumping in with a j rh. only ways that i can punish this is if i empty jump.
  5. Blocking --> pretty straightforward

I’ve gotten to the point where I just finish my ex tatsu off with U2 or otoshi which is horrible, I know. I try crossing up and that gets blocked 99.99% of the time. Are her crossups that predictable?

Sixth, when to use Sakura’s focus. Only good time I see would be after a devil’s reverse. Technically, you can use it for sweep. But ideally, I would just block and go into my bnb for damage scaling purposes. Psycho crusher beats it, the stronger scissors beat it, the lk scissors is safe enough that you can block after. Should I just cut out focus from my repertoire vs bisons?

Seventh, how does one beat the constant barrage of scissor kicks in the corner? Blocking is important, but when is it safe to come out with your own combos. And which combos specifically? cr.lk, cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.mk xx heavy shouoken? I’m pretty sure lk scissor is safe on block, and everytime I try to do anything after this I get owned. Possible scenarios:

  1. block --> another chain of scissors, focus cancel–> another chain,throw
  2. focus --> works 25% of the time if i can let it go after his cr.lk, it will stop him mid-scissor
  3. throw --> teched throw, or another chain of scissor
  4. jump --> chain of scissors, whiffed throw/block, st rh
  5. shouoken, ex shouken --> gets chained into scissors, like i said earlier ex either works or gets traded/blocked/punished

I’m about to give up on her because of matchups like these…

SO PLEASE HELP!!! ANY input is greatly appreciated!!

PS. WHERE IS SABRE MAN?! and the flower dude?


#2

I don’t think a separate thread is needed for Bison specifically, if anything, the match-up against Blanka would be the one that needs one lol.

Bison scissor kick pressure, almost any normal will beat it out if you know it’s coming. When Bison has you in a corner there are a couple things to look for, s.RH, c.LK > Scissor Kick pressure. It is best to wait after two loops of c.LK > Scissor Kick to decide what to do. You can neutral jump if you think they are going to do Scissor Kick again and start a BNB. c.MP or c.MK will beat out Scissor Kick as well. You can jump tatsu out of the corner if you think they are going to do s.RH or c.MK > HP. Shou.

I don’t like to use mix-ups against Bison because he has so many ways out, It’s best to go for an untechable knockdown and go from there. You can grab Bison out of EX Psycho Crusher if you think he’s going to do it on wakeup.

Also it’s not that Bison’s throw is good, I’m pretty sure it’s 3 frames just like everyone elses (excpet Gouken back-throw which is wonky) it’s that his dash is the second fastest in the game.

c.HP will beat out anything Bison does if he tries to approach from the air. Sakura’s fireball is trash, you cannot play a fireball game with her so I wouldn’t try. I mean the recovery on it is better and I am able to throw a fireball and c.HP them if they jump at me sometimes but it’s not reliable like Sagat/Ryu/Akuma fireball game.

Air to Air, your main go to moves should be j.MP or Air Tatsu. I think those two will beat out almost anything Bison does air to air as well. I don’t jump a lot so I dunno, c.HP to me is much more reliable.

It is still a hard match-up but not as bad as Blanka or Zangief to me. :o


#3

well for me it is always hard to get in on bisons who know how to zone with their lk and hk

i think normal throws are the same frame data wise for all (just the range differs)

if you exspect a throw, back dash(+LP~LK) if he whiffs cr.mk xx hp shou will punish.


#4

Let me give you some insight on Bison’s game.

First off, every characters normal throw has the same exact frame data - 3 startup frames, 2 active frames, and 20 recovery frames. The only thing that differs between character to character is their throw range. Bison’s is .9 (which is the norm), and only a handful (maybe even less) have a throw range of 1. Bison has the same throw as everyone else does.

Bison’s footsie game revolves around his st.RH and st.forward. One way to get around his st.RH is to use a normal that has decent range and lowers your hitbox, like Ryu’s cr.forward for example. At a distance, the st.RH will whiff on small crouching characters, namely Sakura. st.RH can also be beaten by a well timed LVL 1 FA CH, or a just a LVL 2 FA. If you try and absorb the st.RH and dash in for a throw, more often than not Bison will tech your throw. However, you really have to be careful using Focus Attacks against Bison, since he has moves that will either hit twice or armor break.

Second, Head Stomp, Devil’s Reverse, and their follow-ups can be easily countered if you know what to do. If a Bison is throwing out either at a distance, than all you have to do is simply walk back and hit him with a fat combo as soon as he touches the ground. Even if he’s trying Empty Devil’s Reverse -> Throw, he won’t recover in time to block your attack if you timed it right; Empty Devil’s Reverse has a few frames of recovery when he lands. If using either attack right in your face where you’re forced to block, just back dash on reaction and punish. I know for sure you can punish him easily with cr.forward -> Shouoken.

As for the follow-ups, Skull Diver (HS followup) can be punished with cr.Fierce pretty much every time. However, if the Bison player gets wind of this, he can land on the other side of you to make your cr.Fierce whiff. Alternatively, you can time a move that has invincibility (EX Shouoken for example) and hit him as he lands. The Devil’s Reverse follow-up can also be beaten with cr.Fierce, but if the Bison spaces it correctly you may trade or be beaten clean. The best options here are to either just block, use a move with invincibility, use a move that moves your hitbox low to the ground, since the hitbox of for the DR follow-up does not extend all the way to the floor.

Third, you really shouldn’t even be using her Hadouken in this matchup. At all.

Fourth, that’s just hit confirmation practice. If you’re gonna throw out a Shouoken after a cr.forward, you have to make sure it’s going to hit. Otherwise, don’t buffer the input behind it hoping you’ll land a lucky hit.

Fifth, being able to mix up Bison can really mess up his game since crossing him up will make him lose charge. So after say, an EX Tatsu reset, it’s probably best to cross under Bison to force him to lose charge, and thus his best escape option - EX Psycho Crusher. He’ll still be able to retain charge for his EX HS/DR however, but I’ve already explained how to counter those. If the Bison uses his EX DR follow-up to run away, then you should be able to dash or punish it somehow; I’m not too sure about Sakura’s options here.

From my experience, teleports can be punished with a Shouoken, but I’m not positive. That’s something you can experiment with in training mode. Blocking is beat by throws, blah blah blah you know that stuff.

Sixth, like I said before - it’s bad idea to focus against Bison since he has moves that will either hit multiple times or armor break. You really have to pay attention to how the Bison plays to understand when to focus. If the guy is just trying to poke you to death, a well timed FA will give you a free combo. Outside of that, most focus attacks will be beaten by Scissors, a throw, or a Psycho Crusher on reaction.

You CAN absorb the Devil’s Reverse follow-up, and it’s definitely a good way to setup big damage if the Bison is dumb enough to fall for it. However, just make sure you’re not trying to focus an EX version of it, since it will hit twice.

Seventh, this is something that a lot of people struggle with if they don’t know the Bison matchup. The main thing you need to do - BLOCK! Bison’s rushdown can be stifling if you don’t know where the holes are, so let me enlighten you a bit.

If you’re in the corner getting hit with constant cr.short xx lk scissors, you should just block and weather the storm. Sure, you’re taking block damage, but the consequences will be much bigger if you decide to try something and get caught with a CH into a knockdown. On most characters Bison can only do his cr.short xx lk scissor string twice, with the exception of a few characters that have larger crouching hitboxes, like Chun Li.

So after two cr.short xx lk scissor repetitions, another cr.short will not reach you, which gives Bison a few options to consider -

1.) He can go for a cr.strong/forward to continue the scissor pressure, BUT the normals are slow, and can be stuffed by a well timed poke or EX move.

2.) He can throw out a scissor on it’s own, but lk scissors has 10 frames of startup - ample time to throw out a good poke to stuff, or jump out of the corner. If you neutral jump (risky) and the sk whiffs, thats a free jump-in combo.

3.) He can dash in and try to throw you, in which case you can snuff him out with a cr.short or something. Some Bisons will throw out a few normals and try to tick throw you as well.

4.) He can jump in and keep up the pressure, in which case you can either AA him, or just dash forward, putting him in the corner.

There are other options that the Bison could consider, such as FADC’ing the first hit of a SK to get close to you again, but you should really focus on the basics before you start looking for that kind of stuff.

Of course, you can’t be positive that the Bison will cr.short xx lk scissors every time - any good Bison will mix it up with tick throws and frame traps. Seeing and countering those just comes with practice, and even though it sounds obnoxious, the best way to get out of Bison’s corner pressure is to not get put in the corner to begin with.

Getting out of the corner with Bison is very dependent on spacing. Obviously, the farther away he gets, the less options he can choose from. Don’t be afraid to mash out EX Shouken in the middle of Bison’s strings, getting out of the corner is completely worth it, and sometimes you just gotta take a chance. Get out of the corner, and don’t get pushed back in!

Also, let me tell you something that’s a big No-No when Bison has you in the corner.

DON’T JUMP! Unless you’re ABSOLUTELY positive that this will get you out of the corner or get you out of Bison’s rushdown, you should never, ever jump. Why? You’ll get hit with st.RH as soon as you jump, or as you land. What’s worse than that is getting hit with EX HS if the Bison is anticipating a jump. What’s even worse than that is being hit with j.strong x2 -> Ultra, so don’t give Bison the opportunity for free damage.


#5

Best option here is just to block. You can’t FA Dictators aerial moves like you can Claw.

Also regarding Dictator’s slide; although it is very unsafe if used improperly, a decent Dictator can space the slide well enough so that you cannot punish it. Punish if they slide recklessly, but just but careful. If you start a block string, Dictator actually has the advantage because he can now start scissor kick pressure.

Another thing, try not to jump in on Dictator. His scissor kick pressure isn’t all that scary, but if you jump into him you’ll either get a st.RH or a well-timed headstomp. Think of SF as a tug-of-war. If you vow not jump in, eventually you’re opponent will panic for ways in.

Dictator is somewhat of my secret weapon. I’m better than your average with him, but he’s not my main character, therefore I know this matchup pretty well. As a Sakura player, I know how to fight him. If anyone wants to spar against my Dictator, let me know.

Props to ^Exceed for dropping valuable knowledge. I highly endorse your post.


#6

Some more tips:

You can space yourself where only the second hit of Scissor Kick will hit and focus there but Bison could throw out Psycho Crusher for armor break. Dunno if you can bait it, haven’t’ really tried.

Bison’s slide (c.HK) is FADC-able now which I’m pretty sure you couldn’t in vanilla. So watch for that. Max range slide can’t be punished much like max range Spiral Arrow.


#7

Punish slide with cl.hp xx lk tatsu, cr.hp xx lk tatsu, lk xx ex tatsu, j.hk or whatever, that’s 40ish more damage, and looks cooler.

EDIT: And 50 more stun which against a lower stun character like bison really helps.


#8

if you wanna be cool, why not cl.mk xx lk tatsu, cl.hp xx lk tatsu, cr.hp xx ex tatsu :>


#9

Well it does the same damage so sure, don’t know about the stun.

EDIT: cl.mk xx lk tatsu, cl.hp xx lk tatsu, cr.hp xx lk tatsu, lk xx ex tatsu now that would be flash.


#10

The best advice i could give you is to play the character for a while. You need to have a sense of when you can attack against charge based characters aka when he’s charging and when he’s not.
A dictator that walks forward is limiting his movelist to only st.mk/hk pretty much.

Sakura’s j.hp beats st.hk and cr.hp if aimed at the head.

Reading your post It feels like you’re relying too much on Sakura’s bullshit.
Sakura’s biggest strenght against Dictator isn’t her tatsu ex to mix-up game, it’s her big damage output with AND without super bars.
When Dictator’s landing a cr.lk, he can only assure about 200dmg(actually I have no idea how much damage cr.lk*3>scissor does) while Sakura does 400-500.

Also I don’t really agree on the no hado part. Dictator’s jump is slow as fuck, so as long as he’s not charging you can mix hado/ex.hado to catch his st.mk/st.hk from time to time and gain momentum(a blocked hadoken from Dictator will give you some time and allow you to go forward where you want to be).


#11

thanks a lot for all of your input guys. every single post has contributed to my matchup vs bison. i normally play vs a 9k bp bison and it gets frustrating sometimes… However, now i look forward to every match because I literally predict 90% of his moves.

Tokimonsta, you are right about the throws. I got really technical one day and looked up the frame data and yeah everyone basically has the same startup and recovery. And the two loops of cr. lk xx lt scissor kick pressure is dead on. I know that it’s something easy to figure out but I usually jump after and get stuffed by the st. RH. Sometimes, I just need someone to point it out for me. :wink: As for the Sakura’s air game, I basically threw out most of it because you are completely right, her cr.fp is so good to avoid making use of it. Cr.mp does stuff, but i feel like you need to press it so early that you’re better off using air tatsu, for me, at least.

freetgy, you can’t backdash and punish with mk xx shouoken. Backdash is 26 frames for Sakura and Bisons total frame for whiffed throw is 25. Not to mention the startup time for cr. mk is 5 frames. =(

Exceed^, no more hadoukens lol. I’m taking your stance on mixup game. I love Sakura and her mixup game too much to not be able to implement it one way or another in certain matchups like these. Therefore, I have adopted the no same side reset when Bison has meter. EX Psycho is too cheap and easy to give him a get out of mindfucking free card. Post reset thus usually results in an EX headstomp but more EX devils reverse and EX skull diver or whatever, which is easily punishable with a nice cr fp xx ex tatsu. As for jumping when in the corner, thats been completely eliminated from my game.

Shogunflow, I agree. Sooner or later, they will start panicking. And thats when cr.fp shines.

Jamheald, that combo IS cool but too flashy for me. I’d rather go for something safer and more reliable.

nobusiness, same as previous.

Yiji, I agree that her biggest strength isn’t her ex tatsu mixup game. I guess I just feel like its not only too good but also too FUN to leave out. I haven’t tried the j.fp because the bison i normally face just does that stupid pos quick j.fp to counter any kind of air assault, instead of a st. RH, no matter the range. However, I don’t agree with the hadouken. A quick dash/jump or focus takes care of hadoukens pretty easily.

I know this should belong in the EX Tatsu mixup thread, but I just wanted to let you guys know I finally realized how to do the two resets in the corner. For those of you that don’t know, you have to hit the j.fp a little late before he falls, then you have two options.

  1. let go of the stick/d-pad so sakura is standing --> land next to wall --> bnb
  2. hold down back so sakura is crouching --> opponent lands next to wall --> bnb

it should look like this: [media=youtube]XPHvsOr1Vjc&feature=channel#t=01m22s[/media]
the first reset was done poorly, the opponent should have been able to block correctly.
the second reset was done right
the third reset is pure beauty, she like twitches at the bottom.

Let me know if this works guys!

And another possibility. What do you guys think of an ex tatsu in the corner then walking until you’re on the other side, jab, then dash forward again. thumbs up or thumbs down?

BTW, thanks for all the help guys! My Sakura game has improved a lot in this past week.


#12

Could do sabre’s late rh in the corner as well, nobody blocks that right.


#13

Upon further research bison has some weird hitbox that means after a lk xx ex tatsu he eats all hits but after cr.hp ex tatsu one will miss so optimal combos will have a lk before ex tatsu.


#14

c.HP does more damage and stun than s.LK though, with the drop of stun on EX Shunpuu as well you’re still better off with starting on an HP methinks.


#15

Oh yeah, I’m talking about doing hp xx lk tatsu, c.hp xx lk tatsu, lk xx ex tatsu that does more damage but less stun than mk xx lk tatsu, hp xx lk tatsu, c.hp xx ex tatsu. I’m not endorsing lk in your short sakura loops by any means, unless that’s all that will hit.


#16

Oh, hmm. Well I think the difference between the two is pretty small but I wouldn’t really recommend doing a double LK Shunpuu loop, it’s good for showing off but increased chance of cocking up and don’t think the reward is really worth the hassle, but that’s just me :stuck_out_tongue:


#17

Oh I like showing off, also it’s only 2 frame link so it’s not bad. I hit a mk xx tatsu, hp xx tatsu, c.hp xx tatsu, lk xx ex tatsu today on a rufus :smiley:


#18

I play both Sak and Dictator, I’ll comment a bit on Yiji’s post.

This is a misconception. Actually, Dic does not usually need his charge to develop his game, contrary to chars like honda/blanka who become completely different beasts with charge. Dic relies on his (outstanding) normals, so “limiting” him to them is not the right word.

This is the right direction. Dictator’s number one weakness is anti air. Good air offensive is the way to go (but beware stupid angles that will get roundhoused)

Completely true, Dictator is a low damage char, but he can hit them really often. Sak on the other hand, is a powerhouse (who would have guessed ?) and should aim to half-bar combos. Reset situations are not so good against dic, because of his escape game. Go for those Shou fadc combos !

c.lk*3,scissors does only 119… but it 1)starts with a 3-frame move 2)linking in itself for a TRUE blockstring (meaning no reversal between blocked c.lks) 3)hits low 4)knocks down 5)pushes the opponent toward the corner.


#19

I do the double loop all the time when it’s possible?
It’s worth it imo.


#20

Wait, doing double loops is a waste? Why is more guaranteed damage a waste?

It’s called training mode.

Don’t wanna do it? Might wanna hop on that nigga ADON! :o