Is there a reason macro buttons aren’t allowed? I am not talking of the combo performing ones, but the one’s built into the game itself… like PPP or KKK. Or in Tekken, lp+rp at the same time. This seems to just be hurting pad players and I don’t see a good reason behind it.
Really, looking in a forward looking manner, most games will be played online one day, and there will be no way to say “no macros.” It’s already like that for some games. It’s arbitrary considering it’s built in.
In Tekken for example if you have macros you dont have to play with your hand on top of the pad as opposed to holding the pad naturally. In 3s, well, if you’re playing on a pad you are already “behind” in one view, this just reinforces it.
Granted, it’s not that hard to press both the buttons/all three at the same time. But some of us have highly developed control schemes.
There are several reasons I see in motivating a change in this rule.
It’s a built in function of the game.
The skill level required to press 2/3 buttons at once is of neglible difference in SF. (You are probably thinking then, “why dont you do it?” The question is really, “why *should *I have to?” I’m serious about this. Think about it.
In tekken you have to contort your damn hand to play in the unnatural floating hand position to make sure you get the buttons correct because the timing is more precise for multiple button preses in that game.
4)The audience your appealing to is shrinking as a result. The arcade grown players like myself and most likely you have no problem hitting two buttons at the same time. But if you pick up a game for a console the buttons are already set in place (T5 is a good example, the macros are already set up for you from the get go…maybe SC is like that but I don’t know) So those who play on consoles are at disadvantaged having *learned *it that way. Limiting the community only to the arcade going audience to compete is a bad idea in the long run. (Sure, you might not want those console scrubs around, but this isn’t even an argument rather than elitism - in fact, it *works *for the non-macro arcade player in that there is just more money to be won in the tournament.)
Surely we all learned more than a few fighting games from their console counterparts; some are even console only. The fact is, unless you know the standards of the community before hand, which are arbitrary, you are going to be playing with macros. It’s built in, and in some sense strategic for a beginner and even advanced players to do so. I am only familiar with 3s/CvS2/MvC2/T5 so I don’t know about some of the other evo games.
Just my two cents. I would really like to see this changed. And yes, *I *would use them if they were.
Sorry, but that argument is trash. Saying “the end” doesn’t make your case any better, either, except perhaps in your own little mind.
There’s a difference between banning broken characters and mapping KKK to a button. If you don’t know the difference already, that’s too bad. In any case, that’s not what is at dispute; macro buttons are.
But the arcades are the original. One of my points is that they won’t be the original for long. I think that’s pretty clear given the current state of the next-gen consoles and arcade declines.
I’m really serious about this - I think it should be changed for the better.
This arguement is only going to go in circles. Many might argue that should Macro buttons become legal those who are used to them will have somewhat of an advantage, let’s face it hitting one button is alot easier than hitting 2 or 3 at the same time. Those that want that advantage would have to practice it, sticks will have to be modded with an extra button blah blah blah.
Your arguement about them being “built in” also has a counter point. Several game breaking glitches are also “built in” not on purpose but there none the less but we can’t use those.
I’m not saying that macro buttons shouldn’t be aloud, I’m simply highlighting some of the runaround you might get.
This thread should have been accompanied by a pole. Since EVO is really run by and for the fans something like this would most likely be voted on to amend the rules or not.
Sure macros for casual play is fine, but for tournys no way.
For example some of the japanese ST players can store TAP while still playing, holding the 3 kicks with buttom of their palm and then using their fingures on the punches, this technique would have taken a long time to master, but someone can just come a long with a pad and all they have to do is hold a shoulder button which takes no skill at all.
Another example is in XvSF with airdashes, there is alot more skill involved playing with the “Claw” style than just using a 3P button which would be unfair since you can NEVER mess up and airdash like that.
I don’t think that it confers an unfair advantage though when you consider that you have a *hardware *advantage when playing with a stick on a console. I think most would say that at least in SF, you have to have a stick to play at high level, or at least it makes it a lot easier to do so. It is tougher on a pad to hit certain button combinations than it is on a stick hands down, as I am sure you would agree. I can’t think of an advantage a pad has over a stick.
But should it cost an extra 40$ minimum to get even a low grade stick to go to a tournament? I think this is asking too much for several reasons, probably the most salient being that these tournaments are being played on consoles. Die hard fans like you and myself may have sticks, but the average gamer doesn’t. And perhaps he wont be in it to win any tournaments being merely average and not die-hard I suppose, but he is artificially and arbitrarly excluded from the get go for not buying a stick. And lets not go into how many sticks one usually has to buy, or does buy, for different consoles, or the converters required, and so forth. Plus I mentioned 40$ to be fair; mine costs over 100 and I am sure most decent sticks are at least $70. Add in converters and so forth and you are asking for quite a monetary commitment. But who is going to make this commitment if they didnt already start playing these games since the beginning, in the arcade?
This is emprical so I don’t count it as much evidence, perhaps it was just me, but I had no problem performing T.Hawk’s flying thing in the air in the arcade (sorry forgot the name,maybe flying Condor?). It’s three punches I believe. Trying that on a pad though I mess up about 1/20 times, and until I got used to it, probably more in the range of 1/5 times. Maybe that;s just me but perhaps you can try this for yourself if you have Anniversery Edition hanging around and want to verify. It’s quite a bit tougher, even though you would think it wouldnt be, doing it on the pad, because one finger has to hit two buttons and your index finger has to hit one of the shoulder buttons. Again, this is just one of my experiences and I don’t mean it to be conclusive. It could just reflect poorly on me. Nevertheless, I think the core I am trying to get at, that its a lot tougher to do some moves on a pad vs a stick, is a given here.
Asking someone with a hardware advantage already to mod there stick to be able to get macros isn’t that big a deal, except monetarily and time wise. But again, with their setup, it could be argued they already have an unfair advantage because they are playing with a stick on a console. I think you’ll agree though in anycase that even with macro button allowed on pad your basic decent stick is still superior. Especially for things like 360’s and so forth - which I am not arguing here for at all, btw way - no commands, just multiple button presses at the same time.
On glitches, I think we can both agree because they are labled as glitches they are not intended by definition and therefore should be banned. I think all agree on this already though. But automatically having macros set for you, for example, in Tekken, or the option to set macros, say, in 3s, certainly aren’t glitches.
I am not sure what you are referring to be honest - are you referring to stick vs pad advantage? If so, see my comments on Knuckledust’s posts. I assume you are because you said holding 3 kick buttons in your palm; that’s not something you can do at all on pads.
I’ll try to address this but I am not clear as to what you are getting at. I played XvSF in the arcade a long long time ago and didn’t have problems air dashing insofar as air dashing iitself (only) is concerned. Combos from an air dash may be tougher to do *from *an air dash and that takes skill on a stick to do, granted, but I think it would still be tougher on a pad (without macros because of hand contortion). With macros, it becomes more equitable, in my view.
For anyone else bothering to read this, please remember I am not talking about merely using it because it exists, certainly the cheating functions you get for beating the game in 3s should remain banned. So analogies based on broken characters or gltiches aren’t being considered here. I am arguing for macros only, and only of the variety that is built in - that is, of the software type that just allows multiple buttons at the same time. As far as I know no game considered to be competitive has built in macros for command executed attacks, say d, df, f+p all mapped to one button, and for good, obvious reasons. That’s not what I am getting at here.
Player: I know lets use arcade machines, superguns, emus etc for arcade perfect play.
Evo: no, we are a console tourney, nothing else
Player: Ok then, can i map my R2 button to PPP for X game
Evo: no, you can’t we are trying to keep things as close as possible to the arcade version, even though the games themselves aren’t arcade perfect.
I think that sums it up pretty well. Not that i disagree with Evo’s rules, just seems like they contradict themselves alittle bit. I think if evo where that concerned about keeping things that close to the arcade original they would use arcade machines, emus, superguns or woteva.
Well, it’s a macro. Your macro (PPP, whatever) is about five times inferior to my macro and about a thousand times inferior to Magnetro’s crazy chain. Or turbo - give me or any Tron player a turbo HK button… swoon. That’s not what you’re saying… but you are opening the door for this kind of abuse…
As soon as you open the door for macros, you open the door to all sorts of “fun” abuse that’s just not worth the hassle. If you’ve run any tournaments with a bunch of people, people can be damned whiny. If you shut down those whines by locking to good non-arguable non-abusable rules, your day is going to be much brighter. Fuck, attend a Break tourney - people go crazy just having to play on one particular side of a cabinet… I’ve helped run tourneys where macros were allowed, and I think I banned them after two minutes because people just couldn’t stop bitching about WHAT macros should be allowed.
Macros are a cool idea but too abusable for gameplay, and nobody in their right goddamn mind wants to micro-manage controller settings from game to game. (If you were at Evo this year, you know the horror story that was running the Marvel brackets as people kept reconfiguring sticks, even without macros…) Macros just aren’t worth it.
And Phat Toi and his brother totally put to lie the idea that pads are a hindrance. :tup: Those guys are nuts on pads… if they can play MSP on pad, you can play anything on pad.
DOA Games, if doa4 is at evo, many of the moves, Grab, F+K , F+P, are already macro setted on the controller from the start, would you consider these moved legal for evo? Sure you could set Grab to a single button, but since there is a way to do it manually, should you HAVE to do it manually? I Can understand why PP and KK are not allowed in capcom games, because it gives a extremely unfair advantage, compared to a throw macro in doa.
In marvel for instance, if you had PP macro setted to a button, you can do the ROM infinite with mag with no fear of ever missing the air dash input, due to the macro, which takes away all the hard work of making that infinite work.
If Evo Doesn’t allows Macros that will be a huge mistake!!!
Also I added exclamation points for emphasis, but sillyness aside, was there more to this? what sort of mistake is this? what will the consequences be of this mistake? The people want to know!
If Evo uses the DC version, it only has 6 buttons, who is actually scared of someone losing short,roundhouse,a1,or a2 to make a PP button to get that slight edge on doing an infinite that everyone has been practicing every day for the last 5 years anyway?