Make Bison more competitive

m-bison

#1

Hey folks, we all have bad times to play competitive as Bison due to a lot of critical weakness so i make a list of buff, and in the future we should send it to Combofiend

Remember it’s about make bison a little more competitive but not too OP so i don’t think a 3f or a +2 Axe is needed

(When there is a letter and a number you are just allowed to one ex 1a,1b,1c you can just pick one)

0* Increase forward and back walkspeed

1a* Dash from 22f>20f
1b* Teleport backdash
1c* Beta1 18f dash

2a* cr.MK into M Scissor,Blast or Inferno
2b* Increase range of cr.MK

3* Buff Headpress tracking

4a* V-skill 3f counter (0f in VT) high/mid/low (like gouken) he throw a immediate Blast, charge V-Gauge
4b* Buff V-skill Parry hitbox
4c* Startup of V-reflect 31>15
4d* Startup of V-reflect invincible
4e* V-skill startup 6>3
4f* V-skill Parry low attacks

5* cr.HP startup 10>8

6* BlastEX put in free-juggle state

7* Add throw invicible frame on HeadpressEX startup

8* Cancel frame from HS to DR earlier

9* HellAttack possible when first Hit whiff

10* Reduce the decrease of the v.gauge it cost when doing a special in V.trigger or longer like chun

11* V-skill charge more V-Gauge

12* 1000 Stun

13* Tiny buff on stun value

14* CA in VT dmg 340>380

15* Normal/Special charge 15% more meter

16* Headpress OTG after CC crHK

17* Blast CH put in HKD

18* LK/crLK on CH > crMP

19* V.Reversal start-up 15>11

20* Telebackdash in VT (2 strike/throw invincible frame from frame 3 to 5)

21* jHP hitbox more downward

22* VT V-skill V-reflect 2 hits like ex-hado

23* EX SK recover on Hit reduced by 4f

24* EX blast dmg 100>140>160(VT)

25* DR fall faster

26* VT.DR Punch to cross up, Kick to front, same as EX

27* Headpress projectile invincible after hit

28* crMP CH>crMP

29* stHP start-up 11>10

30* VT LK SK same startup as Non VT

31* Blast DMG 70 > 70/80/90

32*cr.HP when used as AA 70>100

33* V.skill put in Free juggle state and fly higher

34* Axe overhead when TC

35* Less pushback on Blast

36*More airborn frames on Knee press

I’ll update the 1st post with your best ideas


#2

I think some of these are valid and some are kind of just far reaching.


Remember it’s about make bison a little more competitive but not too OP so i don’t think a 3f or a +2 Axe is needed

(When there is a letter and a number you are just allowed to one ex 1a,1b,1c you can just pick one)

1a Dash from 22f>20f* A lot of Bison’s setups revolves around having this buffer of dash frames to fill the time and distance since he can’t walk fast. I am 50/50 on reducing the frames, but rather I would just have them modify some of the properties within the dash itself in and out of VTrigger. Perhaps slightly more strike invulnerability or projectile invulnerability toward the end of the recovery.
1b Teleport backdash* Not needed IMO. The back dash range is sufficient and sets him up for df.HP for some shimmy since he can’t walk in and out. You get a good knockdown advantage and if they don’t recovery, you backdash and you’re in the perfect anti air distance with crouch fierce or neutral jump hell attack.
1c Increase forward and back walkspeed* Yes. I would like at least a slightly better walk back speed so you can lunge back forth using s.HK or Psycho Axe to counter.
1d Beta1 18f dash* Buff the start up a bit.
2a cr.MK into M Scissor,Blast or Inferno* Yes.
2b Increase range of cr.MK* Just a tad bit more. It’s currently just tiny tiny bit more than crouch MP.
3 Buff Headpress localisation* Yes. It shouldn’t whiff on a good fireball read.
4a V-skill 3f counter (0f in VT) high/mid/low (like gouken) he throw a immediate Blast, charge V-Gauge*
4b Buff V-skill Parry hitbox*
4c Startup of V-reflect 31>15*
4d Startup of V-reflect invincible*
4e V-skill startup 6>3*
4f V-skill Parry low attacks* I think VSkill is okay. It could probably use a faster reflect start up. I think it’s kind of OD to make the start up of the reflect faster.

5a cr.HP startup 10>8* Yes.
5b Buff st.HK AA hitbox* This isn’t meant to be an anti air. I don’t really feel this is needed. If anything I think it’s a little more important that it doesn’t get countered easily but certain low attacks and would like the hit box to crush low moves more consistently.
5c Buff st.LP AA hitbox* Not happening with how the attack’s animation ties with it.
6 BlastEX put in free-juggle state* It already juggles in the corner.
7 Add 1 invi frame on HeadpressEX startup* Would like this to have some strike invincibility so people can respect him a little more on wake up.
8 Cancel frame from HS to DR earlier* It’s good enough. EX cancels the lowest to overhead people.
9a Non throwable KneePress (after 5th frame)* Nope. Not meant to be used up close. It ain’t the same like SF4 where he’s briefly air borne and you could clip people with an auto correct Knee Press against throw techs OS.
9b Low invincible KneePress* Nope. Might as well make it a mid air attack after the start up.
10 Lights into Inferno LP* It’s too much. He can already cancel Blast and Knee Press.
11a Normal Inferno into HeadpressEX in VT (like in beta3)*
11b on V.trigger cr.MP into InfernoEX* ??? We’re getting into weird requests territory as I go lower into the post. lol
13 Buff horizontal hitbox of st.LK* ???
14 HellAttack possible when first Hit whiff* ???
15 Reduce the decrease of the v.gauge it cost when doing a special in V.trigger* I would like his specials to consume like 8-10% per attack and drain a little slower.
16 V-skill charge more V-Gauge*Well, they could make it two gauge, but his defense is mediocre and he could benefit from triple V-Reversals in a round to turn the tides.


#3

1a- If they add invi frame on dash all player surely go riot

1b- TP backdash is to make the forward lesd telegraphed

6- I find it hard to juggle after BlastEX

8- It’s too easy for them to react of normal HS to DR even with a slow AA

9- I oftenly get my MK/HK knees Beat by a low or a throw even when it clearly appear that he is in the air

14- In idk which SF when you jump early MP to AA and they don’t jump you can do the second Hit to no being too vulnerable


#4

Everyone has telegraphed lines of offense. It doesn’t make sense to turn it into a teleporting backdash for that.

MK and HK Knee Press are for punishment IMO. There’s a big cancel gap for HP into HK Knee Press on block so yeah you can be counter poked or thrown out.


#5

TP backdash doesn’t really do anything, as soon as they hear the sound effect and see the purple, tapping jab twice into combo on reaction is enough to beat the dash in, what is a back dash going to do to that? It’s not like the jabs were unsafe.

I would much rather he had his beta none teleport dash back, I want to be able to dash in quicker without getting punished almost every time.


#6

Yeah that’s why i proposed multiple ideas.

A TP backdash will give some Slayer mindgame


#7

Give M. Bison his Psycho Crusher back. That’s like having Ryu in the game with no Hadouken, makes no sense. Make his EX Psycho invincible on start up and change his blast to qcf+p and Bison would automatically go up a tier high on everyone’s list. This would give M. Bison the enhancement he needs to be competitive.


#8

EDIT: nvm


#9

Making Blast motion means it’s suddenly unsafe, just like Inferno. Keep it charge plz. We don’t need a psycho crusher. They could just as easily add invincibiliy frames on EX headstomp and we’re good to go.


#10

If we get ex.HS as a real reversal Bison will function as he did on SF4, where people would just meaty, react to it and punish accordingly, making it a sub-par reversal since you’d get punished for it most of the time.
If ex.inferno were a real reversal, at least it would function as a reversal, since people would get hit by it if they chose to do a meaty. Of course they’d have to remove the ability to v-trigger cancel it.


#11

If you add a few frames of EX HS invincibility you can cancel into EX DR for free and add a good 15 frames of invincibilty making it a crazy good reversal that leaves you + on block. The problem is that right now you do get meatied out of every EX HS with it’s meager 4 frames of invincibility.


#12

#13

#14

These are my changes and reasons behind them.

Remember, though. My lists change a lot with time. It starts big and gets smaller as weeks go by. Of course, I don’t know how tier lists will be shaped by the month we get our balance changes, so by no means I believe this list will be relevant by then (or even by now). That said, please, see it as brainstorm stuff.

1) Last 2 frames of Dash Foward and Dash Backwards cancellable into block or attacks.
His dash is supposed to make up for his lack of walkspeed. Well, giving him a slow dash doesn’t do.

**2) **S.HP startup 11f -> 10f
Small buff to make it a bit more usable in neutral/shimmy

3) Cr.HP startup 10f -> 8f
The hitbox is still unreliable, but at least it’s a little bit faster. No reason to give him one of the crappiest aa in the game.

**4) **Psycho Axe frame advantage +6/+1 -> +5/+2. Shadow Axe is now +5/-2. Pushback on block increased.
Works well against all the cast. Low reward, though. More pushback could be added to prevent strong loops.

**5) **V-Skill now also works against lows.
It’s not that good. Too unreliable. Doesn’t grant good results like Ryu’s parry.

6) Psycho Blast LP/MP/HP/EX/VT hitbox active time increased by 5f. It’s weaker, though. 60 dmg outside VT. During VT, the damage is 100->90->80.
So this move becomes something better to use at neutral. Right now it’s a very boring and generic combo ender.

7) Psycho Blast LP,MP,HP damage increased 70->80 during first 5 active frames.
Bison is supposed to be a heavy hitter according to combofiend.

8) Scissors LK/MK/HK/EX 80/90/100/160.
Bison is supposed to be a heavy hitter according to combofiend.

9) All Scissors Hit Advantage +2. All Scissors Block Advantage -2.
Scissors LK is not that good to be at -4 and Scissors HK shouldn’t be +1. It’s basically neutrality against characters with 3f. Just normalize stuff and make Bison’s neutral game stronger.

10) Make VT Scissors the same as without, except for the added teleport. Same damage as well.
Bison shouldn’t lose tools when VT is active. Scissors LK is much more important than his VT-HK Scissors one. In SF4 Gouken suffered from the same problem with his Palm.

11) Inferno’S Flames animation sped up to disappear together with the hitbox.
Visual change to make the move more understandable.

12) Inferno Regular damage increased from 90/100/110 -> 100/110/120.
Bison is supposed to be a heavy hitter according to combofiend.

13) VT EX Inferno Startup 18 -> 16.
*So it matches non-VT one.

14) VT Headpress is fast as non-VT EX Headpress.
Activating VT shouldn’t take away one of his best tools, his EX Headpress.

15) Headpress OTG again. Only usable in Cr.HK CC situations.
Why not? His Slide is the only sweep with no setup because of its unrealiable frame data.

16) Headpress EX keeps its projectile invulnerability after touching the opponent.
Bison is punished on hit against some characters.

17) VT EX Headpress has a shockwave that forces block advantage to a set number.
Tall characters make Bison lose his framedata.

18) VT EX Headpress hitbox active 4f before.
Currently, it’s worse as Air-to-air than non-VT one. Activating VT shouldn’t nerf Bison.

19) Devil Reverse falls 5% faster.
Its hitbox is bad and it deals poor damage, plus requires charge. Right now, it’s so slow characters can react easily against it and aa. Let it be good as a surprise move.

20) VT Devil reverse works like regular devil. Must input kick to teleport behind. Same to ex devil.
VT shouldn’t take tools away from Bison. Let him keep his original Devil Reverse.

21) VT Specials spend less V-Gauge, but VTEX Specials spend more.
Some moves are not even that strong when used in neutral. His EX Cancels, however, deal huge damage and are a major comeback factor. Let’s balance these things a bit.

These buffs mostly buff his neutral game. No invulnerability added to buff his wakeup. Axe’s utility normalized so it functions the same against all the cast. Offensive power increased with small buffs of damage. All of these, for me, are buffs to his estabilished gameplan. Maybe, with such a strong neutral, his Cr.HP suggested buff is not so necessary anymore, but 8f isn’t making Bison’s aa power good anyway. Still leagues away from Cammy and Chun.


#15

I will just do a list. Dont care lol.
Take them all or only select a few for se ideas. Im looking at all aspects of bison. Not only his weaknesses

Overall

  • forward and backward speed increased
    OR

  • forward dash decreased by 3f (22f>19f) / range covered decreased (amount of invincibility remains the same)

  • backdash decreased by 2f (22f>20f) / gets teleport animation

  • stun increased to 1000 (950>1000)

Normals

  • St.lk hitbox overall slightly increased in size. Rapid cancelable into other light normals.
  • st.mk +15 damage (60>75)
  • crMk hitbox slightly increased / +1 hitstun / + 20 damage (50>70)
  • crHp startup decreased by 3f (10f>7f)
  • crHk startup decreased by 6f (15f>9f)
  • stHk reverted to beta 4 (hurtbox reduced + hitbox slightly wider)/ +10 damage (80>90)
  • shadow axe hitbox now overhead OR -1 on block (-5>-1)
  • stHp starup reduced by 2f (11f>9f)/ +10 damage (80>90)
  • j.mk hurtbox reduced on the bottom (around feet)
  • j.hp hitbox located on the hands instead of the head
  • hell attack 60+60 instead of 50+63

Vskill

  • vskill startup reduced by 3f (6f>3f)
  • vskill projectile startup reduced by 10f (31f>21f). Free juggle
  • vskill activates vs low moves
  • add VT vskill that can reflect ex projectiles and is also cancelable into ex specials. Builds ex meter when successfully reflected something. Dors not deplete from the Vgauge

Specials

  • all regular inferno recovery decreased by 3f. Hitbox size at the base wider for better connection after certains normals (stHP…)
  • scissor kicks hurtbox around feet all majorly reduced / airborne at the start of active frames
  • ex sk recovery after hit reduced slightly
  • ex headstomp throw/strike invincible on frame 1-6 / tracking speed increased / hitbox size wider slightly
  • regular devil reverse hurtbox around his hand majorly reduced
  • ex inferno stun changed from 204+70 to 204+100 Hitbox size at the base wider for better connection after certains normals (stHP…)

Vtrigger

  • Meter use from specials reduced by 10%
  • VT ex inferno matches ex inferno frame data
  • VT ex psychoblast travels fullscreen. Speed slightly decreased. No explosion when opponent in knocked down
  • VT scissor kicks startup frames matches regular scissor kicks.

Critical Art
Hitboxes are projectile invincible

LOTS of changes but doesnt make him above the current top tier characters. Highly possibly makes him rank among them (Not even ashamed to say that he could be top 5 with this).

I didnt bother increasing the damage in his special because most of his damage is lost on his normals if I compare them to other characters. I dont know why they gave him a stMK that only does 50 damage but its quite stupid


#16

Maybe increase cr.lk to +4 on hit so we can do something off it on non-counter hit. It sucks only being able to hit them twice for 40 damage or make them 3-frames with their current frame data.

I do not like how inferno can’t combo at some st.fp ranges or only the first hit connects and they fall out.


#17

#18

#19

You can do C.LK, C.LP, S.LK xx LK. Knee Press currently.

Other characters have this issue with long range cancels as well, use Knee Press instead.


#20

Yeah, that combo works only at point blank range after a dash on wake up or a deep cross up.