no one wants a balanced fighting game.
Wrestling games tend to have that feature though I haven’t really seen any so judge if they were hastely made with only thinking of moves or what.
Also that Street Fighter EX game was EX3. Where you could purchase moves for Ace to use but he could only be equiped with so many moves at any one time (3 specials, 2 lv 1 supers and 1 lv 3 super), and also “power up” the moves by using those moves in matches making him more powerful (in a slight degree). You also couldn’t do anything to his look or anything like that.
good shit man, thanks 4 the feed back, if you’re looking for agame thats not as fast as marvel then you should play GGXX, i ts garbage on live though.
Again, for the pesimist, fuck em :xeye: :xeye: :xeye: HOw the hell are you gonna come in here and tell me what to do??? YOu came in here to tell me i aint shit, my kids aint gonna be shit and that i’ll never amount to shit. SO how could you scold me 4 defending myself, im my furom? :wtf: GTFOH, Dont people relize when they contradict themselves?? :xeye:
As much as I respect your work on God of War, damn, that’s one hell of a statement coming from a fellow designer.
I strive to balance everything, and you come in, just shout “no one wants a balanced fighting game” and don’t back it up? Is it about that whole Karateka argument, that the only way to make a balanced fighting game is to have 2 characters be exactly equal?
I would say perfect balance is impossible, but you can come damn close.
70% agrees with that …
later it reduce to 30% agree about the concept…
tell you , Rumble Fish is 1 innovative fighting game i’ve ever seen.
special defence technique meter and the usual super meter
imagine 3rd strike + rumble fish system ( not graphic )
I agree SF3 is damn close in my book and i give most of that credit to the parry’n system. Eish, you have some really interesting idea’s thanks man :tup: If you’re head gets fill’d with more lemme know.
thedude.com, wtf is rumble fish?? i never heard of it… Is it 4 a concole or pc???
(The guy that made the i have a dream statement) Ya, i have i couple more dreams too, anything that man ever created started out as some1’s dream.
TimeKillr, i play’ed you recently on SF3, what line of work r u in?? Same goes for Omni, whats ur Title? Im curious.
Ok what are some alternatives?? Mugen does seem like a pre-broken engine but it is free and i assume easy to use, but what else is there?
Neither of them are as complete as Mugen yet though.
I don’t have a website for my engine other than of a sourceforge project page. I don’t have time outside of writting code to put up one.
Ahh kool, this open mugen supports OGG files, FMV :badboy: Yes, i D/L Cal3d when i was think’n aboutthe 3d version, but u gotta use Lynx n shit… Thats take s aserious programer, i think at least w/ this openmugen i might be able to stubble though and figure things out. I just hate looking @ code. But thanks these help :tup:
I am a game designer at JAMDAT Mobile.
omni, iirc, did the combat design on God of War.
I unfortunately don’t have much time as I’m at work but I will expound a little further.
First what I’m discussing is relegated ONLY to fighting games, i’m not here to argue if people want a blanced version of chess or any other type of game, FPS, MMO’s, etc.
We should first take a look at if there is a balanced fighting game and if there is, do people enjoy playing it? I’m hard pressed to find an answer.
But when I say no one wants a balanced fighting game what I’m talking about is that there are 2 kinds of people in life - people who want something ‘cheap’ to perfect and people who want to prove that they are better than everyone else and can get around that cheap thing. People need something to do and something to get around.
If you look at all popular fighting games, NONE of them have been balanced:
World Warrior, CE, HF, ST
Tekken 3, Tekken Tag, Tekken 5
XSF, MvC1, MvC2
Look at when games attempted to be balanced and how horrible they have been received - Marvel Vs. SF, various Alpha 2 upgrades, Alpha 3 upgrades, etc.
One of the biggest problems (especially from a developer stand point) is that unless you are just making Virtua Figther 4 Final Tuned version 9 or whatever they are on, you will NEVER be able to predict the future. You are going to overlook something and when you attempt to balance the game, that one thing you overlooked (CvS1 Nakoruru) is going to stick out like a sore thumb and break the game beyond belief.
Plus ultimately fighting games need to be fun more than anything else and a balanced game IMO does not add (or detract truth being told) to the fun equation of a game. Fighting games have an evolution (at least good ones) where stuff is found the first day and won’t work a month later and if everything is balanced what exploration is there for the audience to have/find? Ideally the game ends up being balanced after years of play but I think it is impossible to plan for that type of longevity.
sorry for the short incoherent response, just trying to reply while doing 900 other things.
EDIT: I didn’t see the question til now, but I work for Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA) and the latest game I worked on was God Of War. I’m a designer, and on GoW I handled most of the combat along with a really good friend of mine named Eric Williams (gouken8 of fighters.net fame).
:wow: :wow: , Thats awsome man, that qualifies you for the “Sick Bastard Award” ( this is a good thing) I didnt really get a chance to play the game, but from what i’ve seen and the little i played, the differnt things you can do to the people are very kool and unique. Especialy the boss battles :tup: What other games have you worked on?/ ( if you care to share)
I work 4 a small company called “3001Ad”, we make virtual reality games, if u went to E3 this year you might have the “TRIMERSION” booth. Its a Head mounted display with head tracking for any 1st person shooters. works for PC,X-box and PS2
:wow: :wow: Well, both you and Timekillr get the "Sick Bastard Award"
And you make an excellent point on attempting to build a balanced fighting game, what you said makes perfect sense to me. My main concern is just try’n to get the right kinda gamplay, to where it wouldnt evolve to some broken ass tactics in the future, as well as not making any of the characters too cheap. Marvel vs Capcom2 is just… Completly destroyed, for the obvious reasons like infinites, un bloockables and a Character select screen of like 52 people but only 4 or 5 of em will get you anywhere againts someone who knows the game well. It was allot of fun to play before all of these became unveiled. I dont like CVS2 because of the constant rolling people can do to avoid attacks, i dont c y the dev’s didnt realize that giving people an option to roll away from any move at anytime would get out of hand. If there was some type of limit to rolling (either a meter or a set amount times u can use it) i think it would have been a better balanced game, and would’ve given it more serious type of play. Killer Instinct ( my favorite shit) was just too turn based, you go, I go, u go, it was like playn a RPG sometimes, then people got scared of getting their moves blocked because of the horrendous recoil. And the combo breakers were not easy to pull of, but once you knew everyones combos you could pul em off after like 2 hits. That should have been limited as well.
I view SF3 as the most balanced game because of the parrys mostly, it gives people the ability not to ever loose life (if you are that good) and it works in the air, standing or on the ground. :tup: People used to( and still do) call throwing cheap, so Capcom made the throws a manual action for every1 Qp +Qk giving people the ability to counter throws as well :tup: And every character is still useable, sure some are a little better than others (depending how you look at it) but everyone can be formidable and usefull, to me that was a huge accomplishment. :tup:
It you’re incredibly serious about this, I suggest not using Mugen. PM me if you’re open to…other ideas.
MvC2 has lots of problems, but what you listed are none of them.
Infinites there are none in MvC2. From a very clinical/technical point of view there are no attacks which can be repeatedly indefinitely. The main reason is the character dizzy (or undizzy as some like to call it) which allows them to escape. You can repeat certain sections and end it with huge damage such as Magneto/Iron Man but there is no true infinite like Xmen Vs. Street Fighter had.
Unblockables have been in tons of games MSH, A2, A3, 3s, etc and while annoying they dont break the game so to speak. The problem with unblockables in MvC2 is that they can lead to some serious damage aka Sentinel. Also the risk/reward for unblockables in MvC2 is very low/high.
Character select screen this one is a little trickier. Because on the first day of MvC2 we all knew that Cable, Storm, Magneto, Sentinel were the best (okaymaybe day three when sentinel finally got released). One of the early problems of MvC2 was, The Cable Barrier. He dominated so much of MvC2 that you either learned how to deal with him or move on to another game. Since MvC2 is a Capcom game, people decided to stay and learn how to deal with him. But because of Cable people started doing things in marvel that had been in the marvel engines for years guard breaks, air dashing, flying, etc. Cable forced everyone to learn new stuff and look for new characters that could beat him. So while at the end of this long marvel journey, we know Cable still owns everyone up but it sure was a fun ride as people constantly searched the cast looking for alternatives.
Which brings me to my point, yes those 4 dominate marvel but there is also battle between each other that prevents one from just being better than the whole cast. So while there are 40+ dead spots on the character select screen, there is still a game to be played and that is most important thing. While there were plenty of people turned off that they couldnt win with Amingo, plenty more were turned on to how to play MSP after seeing Soo.
There are a couple of problems here. One, rolling does suck. But I dont think for the reasons you bring up. I think the biggest problem with rolling is that it is just too damn hard to punish. In the beta of CvS2 at E3, you could sweep rolls and it made the game feel way cleaner, sadly this was removed.
Killer Instincts biggest problem was the lack of throws. They threw in those bootleg overheads but anyone with a pulse could see them and just block. There was no penalty for just kicking it in down/back the whole match and just counter attack when need be. But yeah, combo breaking after 2 hits sucked.
While 3s is not the most unbalanced fighting game ever, its not far from it. Yun/Chun Li/Ken just dominate that game too much. Yeah you may see some sexy Hugos red parry Yuns every now and then, but Yun will win that match best out of 10 no matter what.
The problem with Parrying is that you cant bait it and punish it. In A2 for example you could do low roundhouse and have them alpha counter and buffer the low roundhouse into dragon punch to beat the alpha counter. In A3, that whole game is based on who customs first so you can custom immediately afterwards and counter. In 3s even if I get the guy to parry, there is nothing guaranteeing I can do damage to him afterwards. Not only that it is the end all be all move why should you get something that gets you out of every situation? Why should I not be rewarded for rushing you down and you are now in the corner?
Throwing was never cheap, ever. And when have you ever gone for a standing fierce and got a throw by accident and you were unhappy with that result?
There are fighting games that people just pick up and find it fun to play. Games like Mortal Kombat or Smash Bros. Then there are games where people get obsessed with, while others think it’s a game for nerdatrons only. Games like 3S or CVS2.
Not every fighting (or not fighting) game needs to be balanced to the extreme. Have it moderately balanced, and let a couple characters stand out from the rest of the roster.
And to argue for arguing’s sakes, Yun/Chun/Ken dominates the game too much mmmmaybe but in 3S, the skill level of the player determines the outcome a lot more than the tiers of the chosen characters. Ken is a different story, but Chun and Yun can be defeated by many other characters on the roster with vs. Chun/Yun specific strategies.
There’s nothing broken with Ken, he’s just a well-round character with little flaws- so you can’t defeat him with anything but normal 3S strategies.
I think rolling in CVS2 is fine (not RCing, rolling). Sweep>Roll IMHO would render rolling completely useless. Most can react to an incoming roll and sweep. You can still throw people out of rolls, that makes sense.
And throwing was never cheap, agreed.
the discussion in here is getting better . any views towards rumble fish 2 ?? is just that the counter system that require 1 bar of super meter in this game …
and walking sucks big time in the game …
Phew, alright That restores my faith in the industry
I think it all depends on what your key audience is. If you’re going for a hardcore crowd (VF4FT) then people do enjoy playing a balanced game. Even then, arguably, the game is balanced not by having balanced characters but rather by balancing through controls, which is incredibly interesting. For example, Akira has always been an extremely powerful character, but he’s also always been very hard to master and use, which in turn makes him balanced himself. Sure, he’s always had 75%+ damage combos, but those combos require such a strict timing that only the most hardcore of the hardcore could use them.
This is why MvC2 has such problems: most of the killer techniques (AHVBx3, for example) don’t require that much skill to do insane amounts of damage. 3s is not much more balanced in that aspect: it’s not that hard for a Ken player to do Daigo-like feats but it’s much harder for a Twelve player.
I find GGXX#r to be very close to a well-balanced game. Sure, there are definite tiers, but those tiers are much more bunched up together. Slayer might dominate most of the game, but he’s deathly afraid of Potemkin, for example. Add to that the fact that Eddie is much harder to use than characters like Sol, and it’s more balanced.
Well to be honest, there has been no truly balanced game ever, aside maybe from Chess or specific FPSs. Arguably Go isn’t balanced either since you have the whole komi rule to go over the fact that the black player has a huge advantage in playing first.
It’s true that fighting games need to be more fun than anything to be successful, but I think balance means a lot in the whole equation. If you look at a game like Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War, the balance problems completely killed the online game. Some races are just non-competitive, and most players have stopped playing because of some blatant problems with the game. It’s the same reason people don’t play LB2 seriously.
I think we should strive for balance, but not expect it. We need to make things fun while keeping a certain balance so that the game doesn’t become “unfun” because of it’s balance problems.
I know what that’s like
I’ll just quote your other post too…
I hardly feel that rolling is just too hard to punish… Sweeping rolls would greatly kill their effectiveness.
Maybe it was where I played, but nobody did combo breakers on purpose. Everybody mashed like crazy but nobody actually did pull them off. But true, the lack of throws made the game incredibly turtle-friendly; when we stopped playing, 90% of matches ended with a timeout. That was a huge problem with the game.
Then you’ve got a game like MK1, where throws were wildly unbalanced (they are mostly unbalanced in most MKs anyway) and you can understand why throws were being considered cheap. I think the term “cheap” actually comes from the old MK1 days, where throwing just killed the game…
Yun/Chun/Ken dominate 3s, but that’s only in high-level play (which you seem to say doesn’t matter as much as the fun-factor). My 3s character is Makoto… I picked her because I felt she was underused, had a lot of potential and was generally fun to play. When I used to do lots of online 3s (before the US release, when things weren’t laggy) I racked up quite a few wins using her, and she became my choice character. Of course I couldn’t beat the good guys who used Yun or Ken, but I still was able to beat people of the same skill level when they used those characters.
I think the mistake you are making about parries is that baiting them is different than baiting a AC in Alpha 2. In 3s, you actually want people to attempt to parry nothing. Empty jumps were not present before 3s; they are a good example of why parrying works. After you get your jump ins parried, you come to the conclusion that you have to do empty jumping to bait a parry and use the opportunity to attack. If an opponent parries something, it’s usually bad for you; if they attempt a parry but meet with nothing, it’s much better for you. Their ryhtmn is thrown out of whack, and you can exploit this weakness afterwards. Add to that that 3s is a very pokey game and you’ve got play mechanics that are more complicated than in most fighting games (which is why I think it failed, in comparison to SF2. Casual SF players thought it was too similar, and are befuddled by the pick you own super system).