Makoto combos and strats

makoto

#1

ThirdStrike: Makoto

figured we should make a new thread since 25 pages of replies is hard to weed through for actual non flame information.

basic combos:

s. or c.jab xx jab hayate
s. or c.short xx jab hayate
s. or c.strong xx fierce hayate
s.fierce xx fierce or EX hayate
s.fierce xx EX oroshi (tall standing characters only)

normal links:

s.strong >> s. or c.short
s.jab >> s. or c.short

Supers:

SAI:
Pros: big damage, combos off pretty much anything.
Cons: huge bar, poor Anti-Air properties
Combos: links off hayate, c.forward and UOH. Combos off every thinkable cancellable normal.

SAII:
Pros: big damage potential, high stun potential, 2 short bars
Cons: combos only off a fierce when the opponent is on your half of the screen. no invincible frames (1, but that doesn’t count).
Combos: fierce xx SAII. Followups are listed later.

SAIII:
Pros: short bar, invincible frames, good damage potential
Cons: you can’t block, only 1 bar.
Combos: fierce xx SAIII >> c.strong xx hayate

SAII followups:
superjump cancel last hit, forward axe kick, land, strong hayate, fierce hayate.
dash cancel last hit, reverse directions strong fukiage, sj cancel, fierce or roundhouse axe kick
sj cancel, late forward axe kick, land, strong fukiage, sj cancel, fierce or roundhouse axe kick.
normal jump towards short, land, s.jab xx SAII (reset)
tons more too lazy to list, but the above are the useful ones.

Useful tricks:
karakusa after any connected hayate.
karakusa after the following ticks: s.jab, c.short, s.strong, c.forward
kara-karakusa: cancel a whiffed s.short immediately into a karakusa, adds a ton of range.
EX oroshi on wakeup for a super fast overhead that knocks down
strong fukiage after a parried anti-air s.strong
EX axe kick right off the ground to counter throws.

quick start to a huge thread.


#2

got some time, more coming:

Basic makoto “what you want to do” primer

So, why is makoto top tier? Well, in very general terms, it’s because she constantly makes you guess; more specifically, it’s because she forces you into making decisions where the options are you do nothing, she dishes out more damage and forces you to guess again or you evade and leave yourself open to a something else. 3rd Strike is really just a huge rock paper scissors mini game. Throws > parry > attack > tech throw/jump > throw. What sets makoto apart from the rest of the cast is her command throw and her dash.

Like every character with a command throw (hugo and alex), the throw portion of the above chain is weighed that much heavier. Getting universal 2 button thrown in 3S isn’t that huge a deal, but getting command thrown means a loss of ~30% life. The rest of the cast is forced to rely on the attack portion to really deal out their damage. Yeah, they can throw, over and over, but honestly, Yun uses Genei, Chun and SAII, etc.

Some dashes are better than others. The shotos have a nice quick dash, while the twins have absolute crap slo-mo hops. Makoto pretty much teleports. What this means is that she gets within throw range almost instantly, and with minimal effort. Alex and Hugo all have to work much harder than makoto to get their throws in, makoto just dashes forward. This gives her the constant threat of throwing, even at long distances.

Lastly, makoto’s attacks perpetuate multiple guessing games. Hugo and Alex have only one guessing game, the wakeup. Makoto gets the wakeup and the post hayate guessing game, both of which are in her favor. Furthermore, she forces the opponent to guess between throw, low attack, and overhead attack in both of these situations.

Nothing really much more to say, maybe more elaboration on guessing later.


#3

I agree completely. Makoto has too many options in her guessing games. I find that I divide the match into 3 sections. Offense, defense, neutral. When the game is neutral, I generally look for a knockdown or a dash in karakusa, which advances me to the guessing games which allows me to go, and attempt to stay on offense. when Im in a defense state, i generally try to again look for a knockdown or karakusa to put me on the path to offense or a dash back or exhayate to reset the match to neutral. I guess this is all pretty obvious, but when I strated to really think this way it really gives you a clear idea of your/their options very quickly so that you are focused on a series of goals in the match, that form a game plan. Makoto also has the benefit of sa2, as rushing her down into her own corner isnt really the best option( akuma) alot of times. So if you are on def. in your corner , you may find it alot easier to reset the match as rushing down can lead lead to an easy 70-80% combo on them. So people get timid. As i said all this is basic i guess…its just how i think about stuff.


#4

Holy feck, connected hayate -> karakusa is the best thing ever. :lol:

So what can other characters do to avoid hayate -> karakusa?

Jab? DP?

Just wondering so I can know what to expect.

And does anyone have any tips on doing the kara-kara? I can get it to come out every like 7-10 times. Im not sure if im doing the motions too fast or too slow or what.


#5

pretty sure you can never do karakarakusa too slow.

hayate -> karakusa is escapable using the following things:

jump
dash back
jab/short
dp
some of the better karathrows (not sure, but I coulda sworn I was karathrown out of it by alex, his has mad range).

that’s about it, most anything else would get picked up by the little girl.

I also really like the new thread title. Thanks Pryde!

errrr, hrm.

I really don’t like hayate -> karakusa that much. I use it only when I don’t have EX meter, or am using SAI, or when I’ve played too many wake up games and want to show my opponent something different.


#6

yeah, thats what im saying, mixing up the hayate -> karakusa is great and tottaly fucking annoying. :lol:

I love the range on her c.strong. :evil:

I jsut have to master the kara-kara. Should I be using negative edge or not?

also, after a connected hayate -> karakusa, can hugo throw me out of the karakusa?


#7

well, the way I look at it, I have more options to choose from after a knockdown than after a connected hayate. I really hate how some of my options after a connected hayate put me into a position to take damage. Plus, I’m able to play with ranges a little bit more after a knockdown. Also, that extra damage doesn’t hurt.

haunts, not sure what you’re asking, but hugo can 360 you between a hayate -> karakusa.


#8

I think that knocking your opponent down is absolutely crucial for makoto to win. My whole makoto game involves getting the opponent on their back. Once you know them down, you can begin using your karas to mix up( ex oroshi, kara-kusa,ex fukiage if they jump), and your tiger knee tsurugis, to catch them if they duck. The situation is pretty much a completely one sided guessing game in you favor, whereas the hayate rush guessing game is a little more equal. It is still a huge part of maks game mind you but I think that the best best is to continually knock them down, and make them afraid to stick much out so you can really go nuts with kara kara, and as erco said, you have ultimate control over ranges that way.


#9

i agree with everything you people said.

p.s. haunts… i think kara-karakusa is easier without negative edge, especially since you’d want to do the roundhouse version ;D


#10

i think I probably just need to get better at the kara-kara. It seems like 80 % of the time when i try to do a normal karakusa i eat some sort of damage. thats why i am not as confident as i should be after I knock them down. I still have a fear of being dp’ed/thrown or whatever out of a karakusa.

and what makes the RH version of the karakusa the version i should be using?


#11

well… i said that you’d want to use the roundhouse version for its range. you’re karacancelling in the first place to get more range, so why not go for the max? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

but besides the range, i think kara-karakusa is easier without negative edge.

after a knockdown, you can try to bait a dp by sticking out random pokes… and for throw attempts, you can stuff it with crouching short -> tick into karakusa.

and if your opponent doesn’t have a reliable wakeup, knock yourself out with meaty standing strong into a mindgame of your choice.

but just like anything, mixup is the key. do a (kara) chop, sweep, any variant (kara or ticked) of karakusa. hell, you don’t even have to attack, in which case you just wait and see what your opponent’s reaction is after a knockdown.

i’m not a very good player myself, but hope this helps.


#12

I think the key to landing the karakusa is to teach your opponent to expect a strike, especially in the hayate rush. Make them guess between low short> hayate, repeat or tick oroshi, or any of the options really. I sometimes (sometimes) use a cancelled hayate in a rush after a strong or fierce then dash forward and grab when they are still blocking the hayate i never threw. For guys like ken who have a pretty infalliable wake up move, range is super important. I generally throw ALOT of kara stuff agaisnt guys like that and occasionally mix meaty strong, and like once in 3 matches Ill use a low option select to change it up. Basically you want ken to feel like his srk is useless, like youve caught on to him… alot of guys rely on the srk alot with ken, so if you take that away they have to make up a new game plan on the fly. Mix him up so much that his best option really is to block, and then hes forced to react completely to what you do instead of trying you just trying to dodge the srk. Early intentionally whiffed UOH are okay at times as well, as that will bait srks.


#13

Juggles

I need some more information on her juggles. How exactly can I juggle with her dash punch? Does it work on every characters or what? Lates. :o


#14

kara

her easiest kara is with lk you can litterally hit it then do the move and cancel it midway its a wierd move like you can cancel it into moves even if they dont connect,but i feel yall i was tryin for days


#15

ok, stupid question, but what is ticking? ticking into karakusa? huh?

explain please.


#16

ticking is making someone block something and catching them with a throw when their block stun ends. The idea here is to con your opponent into believing that you are attacking him. This way, they are less likely to try to hit you back (stuffing a throw) or to expect a throw coming, and more likely to just sit there. Makoto’s favored ticks are deep blocked c.strong, deep c.forward, s./c.jab, c.jab.

sidenote: you can hit with a c.forward and still be in range to karakusa afterwards.

Also, ticks setup a lot of guessing games for your opponent. The idea here is to make them think you’re gonna throw and hit them with another attack, or vice versa. Like, drop a meaty s.strong then karakusa. Next time they block a meaty s.strong, do a c.roundhouse to hit them when they jump to avoid the karakusa.


#17

Heya. As an avid Makoto player (She’s my best character, even before she got the huge boost in popularity…), I’m always on the lookout for strats and things. But to be honest, I feel like i’m only using about 80% of Makoto’s full strength. I personally feel that I like SA1 the best because then I only have to worry about getting close. With SA2, I have to press the right kick button (Which I usually miss with) and SA3 is only perpetually good if you can tech/dish out massive loads of damage quickly.

So far, my ULLLTRAAA MEEGGGAA COMMBOOO goes like this.

C.Throw > Fierce > F.Hayate > SA1. That alone causes about 100 points of damage (At least according to the Attack data thingy.) Sure, I find simpler ways of doing things into that super, but it’s nice.

However, I do have some questions.

  1. I know all of Makoto’s moves, but what is Karakusa? I probably know the move, but don’t know the name.

  2. What’s the best way to fight against Elena? Her constant toe poking takes out the Hayate, and with her array of Kicks at her disposal, I can’t predict her well, so I can’t tech against her (Although I did manage to tech her Brave Dance once. That was a serious trip…). And The only thing I can do against her so far, is Makoto’s air kick, to knock her bikini butt out of the air, or the Ground chop in hopes of pinning her feet to the ground.

  3. My friend, just to spite me, started playing as Makoto as well, and Honestly, I can’t fight against him. If it helps, he uses SA2, and does all that stuff with the c.Throws into the SA for massive stun, so on and so forth. What can I do?

  4. What’s the Best Strategy against Yang? (In particular, one that plays with the super that causes shadows to mimic your movements, or rather, his.)

  1. To cancel out Poking matches, I use Crouching Fierce punch, which trips the person. However, this doesn’t work well with long legs (Alex I can deal with, but Hugo, Urien, and epsicially GILL.)

  2. (Not really a Makoto Question, but a question none the less.) Is Seraphic Wing Techable? I hate getting hit with it, and I hate losing even massive guard damage.

That’s pretty much it. I’d appreciate it if you’d answer, because these are a few problems. Now that I can do the c.throw with ease, hopefully, this will make my Makoto even stronger.


#18
  1. the choke grab.
  2. I have the same problem - can’t help you much.
  3. get better.
  4. jump back forward/RH - try not to let him get momentum.
  5. low forward has huge priority, try grabbing limbs sometimes.
  6. NO.

#19

I’ll assume tech = parry

elena gets out prioritized by c.forward, and the only thing she can do to keep makoto off her is dp, and that’s a risky gamble. Don’t let her keep you at mid range (right outside your sweep range), where she can poke and overhead with full effect. If you’re using SAI, spam the c.forward, make sure you perform the super motion every time though, so you can link it afterwards with just a button press.

Against makoto, spam the ex axe kicks. You know he’s looking to dash in and get in a command throw somehow, and the best way to avoid this is to ex axe kick. At that point, you get to play wake up of your choice, especially since Makoto is very weak on getting up.

The twins are a bitch. Yang SAIII is annoying as hell if he knows how to do the ‘unblockable.’ Ugh, try to stay on top of him when he doesn’t have meter. If he starts dive kicking at will, try dashing under them and c.strong xx hayate their trip guard time. Other than that, I don’t really know, twins are her worst matchups.

Against the big characters, ex axe kicks are the way to go. The three you mentioned (Alex, Hugo, Urien) have HUGE crouching hitboxes are really easy to hit with ex axe kicks. Add to this they have pretty bad lag on most of their pokes/whiffs, giving you time to dash in -> karakusa, and all the fun that entails.

SAII > SAI in my opinion, only because you get a healthy supply of ex’s to burn without removing the threat of super. Plus, SAII stun followup outright owns some characters.


#20

Does Makoto’s Hayate taunt have any actual effect on her stats? or only her regular taunt? I heard that she does more stun damage after that and Ive also heard it does nothing.

also, against shotos, whats the best anti-wake up game to use? I have been rushng in, waiting for them to DP, then just karakusan’ them on thier way down… I would like to be able to throw out more tick throw type joints, but it seems like my s. strong is always geting stuffed by a DP. Should I be using c.forward? or should I just not do anything at all?

As for elena, I played someone who was good at poking w/ her last night, and basicly, like erco said you have to abuse that c.forward and jsut keep pressure on her. if you let her get you at a distance it can be a little tough getting at her. Also, if they are using spinning beat as thier super arts and like to do it as wake up, you can karakusa them right out of it if timesd correctly. Also if you time your RH axe kicks it will stuff that super as well and put her flat on her back.