Makoto vs Elena/Chun (FRX/Wong) discussion

Hey Ramza, I was interested to know how your matches against Wong went. Like, what worked, what didn’t work, and what threw your game off. I think we could all learn from your experience from this.

In the past(vs Elena), I’d be spamming j.Forwards, standing Forwards, and the occasional held Hayate to punish whiffed b+Roundhouses to link into SA1 (I use SA1 instead of SA2 vs Elena).

As for Chun, what super did you end up using? Conventional wisdom says SA2 but from what I’ve observed, unless you have offensive advantage, it’s difficult to get Chun to leave an opening or to beat her in a battle of attrition.

o o sorry i got to this so late, i’ve been dead tired since getting back from FRX. well, i was quite nervous before the grand finals, the adrenaline from winners finals was still going strong within me. it must’ve took me about 2 minutes to plug my stick in:rofl: well, from the very beginning i wasn’t quite sure who justin was going to pick. i know combo’s played elena before, so even though he picked her after picking oro the rest of the tourney i wasn’t too surprised. but justin picking her kind of had me sitting there for a while.

i picked sa2 all but one match against elena. while actually playing against justin, i didn’t feel like much of anything ever worked. i ate so many b. roundhouses i lost count. he constantly mixed up the timing of it as well, i didn’t adjust very well. i also tried to punish b. roundhouse with hayates, but i was too late to punish about half the time. also, since post hayate seemed to come by so infrequently, whenever it came by i wanted to take advantage. consequently, i think justin had a 100% reversal rate in these situations:sad: air to air, elena seems to beat makoto as well; justin also did a noticeable better job at air parrying. i don’t really have much to say, justin peaced me out 8-1. whenever justin had a life lead, it seems i played exactly into his hands. i need more experience in this matchup, and numerous people have told me to pick up a second character. maybe they’re right:wonder: if anyone else has advice for this matchup i’m all ears.

as for fighting his chun, i strictly use sa1. from the beginning i focus on meter building and staying just at or outside her standing fierce range. sa1 is reversal super against chun low forward a little bit inside or just at character length’s distance. nice crouching hit bonus if you get it, and the threat of it keeps it out of her arsenal when she’s up close. i’m not even sure if justin knows about it, but he refrains from using low forward within these ranges against me. sa1 is better for punishing jump aways and I have some tricks for it post hayate. purely parrying b fierce and low forward into super is always a reliable option for sa1 as well, it makes whether chun cancels into super or not irrelevant. most of all though, the fact that I’ve fought(and lost) against Justin’s Chun several times is what helps the most. i’m interested to fight against other top Chuns out there, knowing how to beat justin may not apply universally to others.

Nice job getting second man, would there happen to be any footage from Final Round X, particularly of you though.

ty sir. eric lee(shinshay) recorded most of my matches except for winner and grand finals(frx staff has footage of this). however, shinblanka is planning to release a dvd for FRX so I don’t know how the footage will be handled.

Yeah…may have to wait a while for footage if they plan to release a DVD. Yet…with stuff like YouTube out there it’s a bit harder to create a profit off of DVDs.

As far as Elena…I knew exactly why Justin chose Elena as soon as he picked her. Makoto’s grappling game is scary and Elena’s b+HK outright beats her dash in grab game. Justin is a master of defensive playing and Elena’s poking options allow her to not get hit for long periods of time. She can draw the match out just as well if not better than Chun. Throw invincible on the first frame and goes over a lot of Mak’s pokes. Chun still has an advantage vs. Mak (as far as controlling space) but a badly timed poke can end the game for her. It also seemed that Elena was harder for Eric to juggle compared to Chun. I don’t know if it’s her hitbox or the way she juggled but he missed a lot of opportunities to stun Mak I guess based on the way Elena was falling to the gruond after SA2.

I also wasn’t exactly sure why he picked SA2. I guess he was just confident in the fact that a good combo would end her. Elena’s health is slightly lower than Chun’s so the damage would have added up. Yet…he was missing double fukiage setups all over the place and Justin would psychic parry him almost everytime he reached for the air. I figured SA1 would be better but with how Eric was completely unable to get in at all I’m not even sure if he would have been able to take much advantage of it. Elena is like a Chun with 4 different really good anti airs. You really have to outsmart a good turtling Elena in order to get in. I’m sure Makoto definitely has options to do it but it requires knowing the matchup.

this will sound kind of stupid… but… (usually jab or strong)fukiage is really good against her :x

it will make elena think twice about spamming
and it trades with her dp in a post-hayate situation
and if they get the idea that they own the air… fukiage is a fairly decent anti-air since her limbs in most of her air-attacks stick out far-ish

…turtle-elena sounds super aggravating :confused:
seems like… you have to spend a lot of time walking at her, and seeing what happens. don’t be under the impression that makoto has to force the action in this match-up… or maybe… she isn’t very nice when she has meter… no idea…


I’d be interested in seeing more experienced Makoto players talk about this matchup too…cos, as an Elena player, I’ve never met a Makoto player who could beat me by doing anything other than simply catching me off guard, which is hard to do against a passive-aggressive Elena player.

well, i always lose to combofiend, but you can try asking Arlieth, that fool always owns combofiend in tournament…
some of the weirdest shit i’ve ever seen done somehow wins it for Arlieth…i’d explain it but i’m just ask confused as combofiend when he sees it

Sex I vs Combofiend.

i was told you gotta do kara s.short fukiage as finisher for elena 100%stun.

Mackinzie: I think you can do that, yeah.

As for my experience vs. Elena, I know that it does take a really good eye to punish Elena’s b+Roundhouses, but if it’s a defensive player doing it on reaction, you need to be able to force Elena into an action, or she’ll stalk you and start kara-throwing you in the corner, which hurts like hell. Being in the corner against Elena sucks. I try to force action with out-of-range sweeps to nail her slidesweeps (and also to bait her into dashing in) and standing Forward kicks to punk her in the head if she tries the b.Roundhouse shenanigans. However, you must be at a certain range to do it, and it’s good practice to maintain that range (or longer) so you’re not in danger.

I also try to stay above Elena’s head for the majority of the match, because as long as I’m above her, her b.Roundhouse and jump attacls can’t beat my j.Forward kicks, which stick out for a while. It’s (strangely enough) an aerial zoning game from what I’ve seen, because Elena has too many ways of shutting down your ground game.

I’d also stay at dash threat range (a good chunk of characters have a dash range longer than their active attack zone: Elena, Makoto, Urien, Oro, Remy) and out of Elena’s immediate attack zone. Much like the Yun matchup, Elena has to extend herself to hit you, and isn’t as much of a threat at long range as Chun-Li is. That’s essentially the core of the match.

this was a pretty rare case tho, if you would have seen the next match where combofiend eliminates him in losers, it would show how much of what was done before wasn’t exactly free…unfortunately it didn’t get recorded so…oh well

yes that’s true, although the regular 100% stun combo works as well w/modified timing

yea basically what tom said…the st.forward kick beats her b.roundhouse clean…
peter always gets pissed when he loses to you…ie. jump full screen and then super (peter sticked out a low short or something hehe)

Since Arly broke down the match up pretty well I’ll just throw in some random crap in my experience playing against Elena

hayate tends to work surprisingly well as an anti-air in this match up when she is jumping somewhat shallow to avoid aa fukiages or to abuse the great range of j.rh, air chain, j.fp

nutural/back jumping fwd and rh beat pretty much all she can do airborne unless she gets above you before you get off of the ground

As for dealing with her super jump its generally better to treat it like Oro’s double jump and just dash under and attack if you see fit from behind

You must learn to late tech her kara throw

As for saI or sa II depends on the Elena player I used saII against combofiend and NCR and won against his Elena second match he switched to Yun

(personally I couldnt see using sa II in this matchup unless you are 90%+ with the double fukiage ender even then you have to deal with the range issues and the dead spot.)

Although if I was playing someone I knew who was a hardcore turtle Id probably consider switching to sa1

ramza or Eric, I play makoto also and I only play SA1 at the time, which is working for now …But I’m trying to learn SA2 but after I Karakusa and s.Fp I cant get super out and I try over and over but it never comes out… any pointers you can gave me…

well, i used to have alot of problems on one side(when i’m on 1p side), but cajunstrike told me a method to make it much easier. basically, just do a half circle. hold back as soon as you karakusa, then start the motions from there. if you can do fierce>sa1, then sa2 should never be a problem. there really isn’t a shortcut persay, just know that you have more time than you think. i think that’s what the half circle method forces me to do, slightly slow down the process.

THanks Ramza it tech works perfectly…

Ramza do you think SA1 Makoto can win tourny’s…or even a major???

i’m pretty sure mr. quotes got pretty close using just sa1 at one nec, i don’t remember the year(before my time:sad: ). i think its def viable, just very difficult because the balance of ex/keeping super stocked is so delicate. to be all that you can be with makoto tho, i think its important to be able to use both supers well

Um… I think that Makoto is more a “Ex” char than a “S.A.” Char. Obviously: the S.A. gives you a huge advantage against all players (ones more than others…), but Mak can perfectly win whitout using S.A.

I was playing around in training mode mak vs Elena from karakusa

karakusa st fp x charged jab hayate leaves Elena in a very interesting situation for what you can do vs what Elena can do to escape…:wonder: