Makoto Vs. Ken yes this is a cry for help

makoto

#1

i really need help on this match up, as it’s probably the only one i’m weiry of doing it’s tough to stick a karakusa on him especially if he smells one coming and HE doesn’t even have to he can sit there and do c.mp all day and pwn me just like that probably not even moving the only thing i really can do in the match up is wait get thrown and get hit bye UOH’s so any suggestions or strategy’s would be awesome. thanks in advance.


#2

throw out a standing strong to meaty a dp if you think it’s coming, and tick into karakusa. if he wises up and starts to jump away, s.lk - ex oroshi his ass back to the floor. if he starts to catch on to that tick, tick with something else… ex: c.lk


#3

does the strong match blows or does it actually stuff a DP because i didn’t think you could stuff one.

[edit]
i still cant stuff one maybe my timing is bad…
[edit]


#4

A meaty s.mp will get hit by ken’s dp. Nothing will really beat him out of a dp except you can trade with rare moves with strange angle’s. As for strategy…

Ken is really my worst match up by far so I cant really offer too much help sorry.

Just remeber, dp beats everything lol. Also, try to recognize his tick throws if your opponent likes to do them. I usually jump if I know they are coming or sometimes UOH will beat him.

Sometimes if you backdash once out of dp range on his wakeup, you might trick him into thinking that a dp wont work. Than you can hit him with the mixup of kara-ex oroshi, c.fp, or kara-karakusa. If he wises up and starts dp’ing you out of them, than dont start going into the backdash range anymore on his wakeup…its best to stay closer.

Im not sure if you were the one havin a bit of trouble here but, if you have problems retaliating fast enough after a blocked jab shoryu or a blocked SAIII, than dont go for karakusa’s in my opinion. Just for the s.fp, I find it to be easier to think of that quick. If you think you will miss your opportunity for the fierce punch, just go for the easy s.lk --> lp hayate.


#5

Ken is more like a 50/50 matchup IMO. THe way Ken beats you is to counter everything you do as in specific scenario situations. So for example if you go for karakusa, ken can jump, dp, backdash cr.mk super. These are most of his major defensive options against makoto, which i think is a lot of options compared to the rest of cast in terms of wakeup options. Ken will probably want to keep things under control, and hopefully get into his offensive rhythm.

Knowing this, the way makoto beats ken is to beat everything you think he’s going to do. Meaning you have to make him think your going to do this, so he’ll try to counter that, but instead you knew he was going to do that, so you counter accordingly. So basically you’ll have to understand your ken opponent, and go for your mixups accordingly.

Example, if you know ken’s going to uppercut, you can either bait it out, option parry low to counter or block, or do an early meaty st.mp to tighten the timing of there wakeup uppercut.

If he keeps jumping, punish the jumps, and if he backdashes a lot, punish it by cr.hp, etc.

Basically i’m saying is ken wants to control the match, but as long as you keep him off balance by countering his defensive options, you’ll get the upperhand. Of course, you should learn all the options makoto’s has, and it seems limitless. Don’t get discourage when you get uppercut once, twice, or even three times. Most ken’s will uppercut out of fear, so you should look at it as smelling fear. As long as your not in the corner, those uppercuts amount to small damage if they happened to guess wrong.


#6

I got some vs. Ken tips for you.

c.lk is relatively meaty for a light attack, it’ll beat lp and mp dp’s… not good enough, eh? well here’s some more junk.

If Ken is buffering super after stuff like c.mk and c.mp as a way to punish your dashes then it’s possible to dash in right after you see the normal come out. Technically he’s recovered and can hit you before you’re there, but because he’s doing the motion after the normal you have some extra time before he does something else. This goes for everyone trying to punish your dashes.

If he’s doing normal after normal without much time in between you can hit him (good risk but not guaranteed) with f+hp or hayate. If your hayate lands you’re in mixup land again. Again, this works on everyone that spams normals to neutralize your dashes.

As for post-knockdown situations the following works well against characters with DP’s so also Ken: from up close whiff a s.lk right before they get up then do a Karakusa. If they do a HP dp it will not knockdown (if they cancel to SA3 you’re boned though). It will grab them if they block (duh) and if they try to throw it will miss since the s.lk puts a pretty decent amount of space between you and the person getting up.

Another thing that’s works against everyone but shines extra nice against Ken is to do jump > instant EX Tsurugi in post-knockdown situations (and possibly also after landed Hayates). This will hit blocking ppl and someone trying to throw, but also (and this is key) if you happen to get Ken’s HP dp you will only get hit by the last of the three hits which does shit for damage.

Since Ken is pretty good at nullifying Makoto’s dash resorting to stuff such as uncombod hayates and delaying your dash become more attractive options. Against other opponents that cannot hurt you as bad if you mistime your dash you don’t have to risk as much.

Also, jumping occasionally is advisable since it forces them to keep that in mind as well. With Makoto’s ground game depending so heavily on her dash (lol @ her walking speed) jumping is not a bad option if you have a hard time dashing. Early j.mk are hard to aa and usually not parried because ppl expect and parry deeper since that poses the bigger threat. Jumps are easily punished, but consider the how important getting in is for Makoto.

Finally I’d like to add that, yes, makoto is an offensive beast, but… consider the following example:
you get in once, land a few hits, try a mixup and then get dp’d or Ken jumps away. You’re now in the lead, even though it’s slim, it’s not a crime to be more cautious and defensive.

That’s all I could come up with right now.


#7

I ONLY fight Ken.
Just a Daigo clone.

If he kicks your dashes for karakusa with low kick, wait for him, parry and punish.

You can be offensive cheating him. I like to atack jumping and falling with mk, or with hk scissor kick. If he’s waiting for it, I don’t kick, just land in front of him and karakusa :slight_smile:
If he’s waiting for me to land and put a low kick on me, I SA2 just when landing, and he’s f**ing owned.

Universal overhead when he wake’s up and then karakusa.
If he wait’s for it and wake’s up with shoryuken, let him fly and punch his ass when coming down in flames xDD

So, don’t get bored, do something unexpected, don’t repeat the same routine.

Another unexpected one is the roundhouse walking kick into foot-in-face (s.HK) and then c.HP, or into a karakusa.

Throw some -> + s.HP when you see it punching air.

Yes, I play Makoto like a bitch.


#8

If you’re having problems with shoryus, especially wakeup shoryus, I agree with what someone previously said as to train him into thinking it’s quite a possibility for you to be in range at first, but then to backdash or get away in some sort. If you can manage to do that, then you just gotta utilize the blockstun of her moves to make him anxious, perhaps baiting an lp shoryu. For example, meaty c.mk, s.mp, c.hp. Something like that. That block string, in my opinion, is more unnerving than some other choices, mostly because s.mp triggers (karakusa!) in some people’s minds, and a well timed meaty c.mk can combo into s.mp as far as I know (or maybe that’s just on crouching). Anyway, there’s not much of an opening. Just a suggestion. I hate this matchup, too. Chun always sucks, but at least she has anti-air deficiency, and Yun has a small stun gauge. He also takes damage like a bitch. Both are fear factors when you’re up against Makoto. Ken’s just… solid. :sad:


#9

thanks for all the good info guys are there any other match ups that we are having problems with we should talk about?


#10

against Ken you have to go for broke. serious.


#11

Man, it feels like ALL I fight is Ken…

There’s quite a few things that I’ve tried that may or may not work (the level of comp here isn’t all that high, so I dunno how it’ll fare for you). Dash in, but not right up to Ken, rather to about one character’s width away, then vert jump. You’ll dodge lows (cr. MK), be in a position to parry DP, if he jumps you can HP or HK that shit too.

If he likes to random DP, a good EX Hayate will knock him quick (though you need to do this on reaction). Or, even better, SA2 if you can time it well enough at certain distances.

If you get a knockdown, EX Oroshi’s a good bet. Trades with his DPs. I also like to empty super jump cross up and Karakusa (very risky, but if you hit it, you can pretty much say that rounds in the bag).

You’re not really going for the Karakusa in this match, really, due to the DP…just try to outpoke him.

Oh, and if all else fails, turtle. Seriously. >_>


#12

Oh yea and don’t get frustrated if s.FP --> SA2 doesnt connect even at 1/4’th of the screen…connecting it on ken is all fauked up. Half the time the forward kick version of SA2 won’t be connecting.


#13

:confused:

Their isn’t any issue with comboing into abare on ken. The only characters i can think of with issues are Elena (dead spot) and twelve (fpxxrh abare doesn’t combo)

As for advice against Ken i can’t give any without a specific problem


#14

i was always told to use mk not rh


#15

You use short, forward, RH based on distance. Some characters can be iffy like makoto and chun li. Didn’t really know about Elena or twelve, but i guess they might be weird characters as well. Ken is as good as you can get as in terms of comboing the RH version esp. on your side of the screen.


#16

I think it’s possibl to cancel s.hp into mk SA2 at 1/4 screen and have it blocked, I’m quite positive I’ve seen it happen before. I’m pretty sure it happens if you cancel it very late. I’m gonna see if I can test this.


#17

That’s true. On ken, if you cancel the FP too late will end with a blocked SA2.


#18

Can you late cancel fp and have abare get blocked, yep but thats a fault in your execution/choice of abare not the combo itself.

When you do karakusa->sfpxxabare on ken (and most characters minus the small ones and Elena) you will either do fwd or rh abare even if you backs to the wall. And in Twelves case always fwd.

As for combo’ing abare on mak the only issue is iirc she breaks the when in doubt use the shorter (between fwd and rh) “rule”. So if she is somewhat in-between fwd and rh abare range you use rh.


#19

Well if two people agree that it’s possible then I don’t have to test it anymore lol. Go lazyness.


#20

Don’t know if this was mentioned, but if you do s.Short as a meaty and Ken does a wakeup multihit (Strong, Fierce, or EX) DP, you will only get hit once and be safe from the rest and able to punish. That’s because Makoto is considered to be actually “in” the position she pulls back to when the Short is over, so when she gets hit she moves back to there instantly.
This goes for any multihit move from anyone, but it’s especially helpful against Ken.

Mike Z