Makoto Vs Ken

makoto

#1

I’ve made threads previously about Vs Hugo and Makoto respectively, which I’ve kinda gotten my head around - but it still doesn’t hide the fact that Ken is my ever most hated matchup. I actually prefer to fight yun or chun.

My problem arises when the Ken player is very heavy on zoning and never gets into karakusa range, only looking to throw out option-select crouch MK into SA3 and standing HK. Zoning that space with neutral tsurugi only seems to work against aggressive ken players.

Then there’s the wakeup game problem - since she has no get-off-me-move, I’m praying on a chance that I could get a throw tech or a poke without getting caught in any frametraps/meaties.


#2

The key to beating mak is containment, you cannot expect all your oppenents to beat themselves (unless your playing online then they probably will)

Kens that are using cr fwd buffered and st rh to zone out Mak are making your life much easier. These pokes are quite laggy and are free dash in or hayate on whiff.

I would not recommend nutural jump tsurugi for space control at any range they can walk back and make it whiff and punish. It has horrible landing recovery and is easily punished.

Post knockdown blocking is generally your best option at this point. You will need to sit down and learn what your options are and what kens options are from the normal knockdowns situations (the different throws, shoryu’s, sa3, ect) Pressing buttons when knocked down is risky as you are opening up yourself to your poke getting parried and them getting a fat combo.

If you post vids I will point out other things.

ps against Hugo patience and a good about of keep away/whiff punishing goes along way.


#3

You have to be really patient if you want to win against Ken. One move I’ve used a lot is f+hp. It’s very under-used but in cases where you feel like you can’t get in, use it for conditioning reasons. It can hit 3 times but I only do it one because it gets the point across. Also, a good move to use after a blocked standing mp is standing hk. I also find the lk, mk target combo to kind of mess with people’s minds.
You have to be on your p’s and q’s against a good Ken. Punish everything. Do not dash in often. Use the dash for movement and escaping. In most cases, against Ken, they expect you to do all the blocking and mindless dashing in. Instead, be conservative and turtle more. (Strange: Turtling in a Makoto board…)
Post Karakusa>hayate… I’ve no clue. It’s almost as bad as Mak v. Hugo.
In my opinion, neutral Tsurugi is a terrible idea… Neutral EX TSURUGI is a GREAT IDEA. Neutral just begs for a SRK. If anything neutral jump>parry>…Eh? Throw?


#4

I cannot say I am seeing why this option should be used much if ever compared to her other options.

-st fp which prevents them from jumping away and dashing back which you can take a somewhat safe guess and buffer ex hayate (or possibly sa2 for more risk and more reward if in range)
-cr strong which is hit confirm-able into hayate (which also is un-jumpable and will catch the backdash)
-cr short hayate if you see them stand block the strong
-confirm st strong into st short hayate
-dash forward
-etc

I agree st rh does have some uses vs Ken, I am just not seeing it post st strong


#5

Standing fp doesn’t hit a crouched Ken post-hayate.
cr. strong is risky vs. a crouch tech (which is what I would do if I know Mak isn’t close enough for a karakusa)
cr. shortxHayate is actually a good option.
dash forward - also good.
I just like the positioning standing hk gives me. It also me to get a read instead of taking a risk. Vs. Ken, reading is a lot more important than risk taking in my opinion. But to each 3rd Strike, their own.


#6

When you do karakusa post st strong you are guessing that they are going to stay grounded/block after the st strong. When you do st fp after st strong you are guessing that they will do something that st fp will hit (generally jump/back dash). Everything you do as makoto comes with some risk it is your job as a mak player to manage that risk depending on the situation. It is in your best interest to keep your opponent in situations where they have to guess.

My main knock about st strong followed by st rh is that it does not really beat much and you do not really get much if it hits anyways. I will not say that st strong followed by st rh is useless but most of her other options post st strong are better.

Also when you say cr tech do you mean cr throw tech or down parry?


#7

How is roundhouse a better idea than anything JAK… pointed out? You get nothing for it and it’s slow. You can’t do anything but die if they parry it. Wtf are you worried about crouch tech for? Teching has no point at that range.


#8

Low parry. My bad.
Post-MP, the range at with it is done is really important. I just like the sitution HK give me. It’s safe, it’s fast enough to beat a lot of things Ken can do because of the block advantage (not SA1 of course. SRK, I think so). I really don’t like the st. fp option because it’s too risky. I’d rather just lkxxhayate(fient). Puts Ken at range and allows me to react to whatever option he choose. HK I just use because it’s a low crush, it’s got good prioty, after mp (depending on the range at which it is done) it’s pretty much a great spacer. It’s safe and effective… All in all, we know the best option after MP is to swag.
One thing I’ve been experimenting with is kara’ing my hayate’s with hk at footsie range…
Something I highly recommend you guys try out. This is speculation, but it could be useful. kara’ing moves with HK may be amazing…
So fair:
Pros:
Avoids throws (I even think most charcters kara-throws. Not sure yet)
Can be used kind of like Dudley’s short swing blow (A decent safe move in my book)
Makes c.mk a bit easier to punish. Kind of an option select

Cons:
Not very safe against characters with far pokes (Hugo -__-)
…Will update this more


#9

Just so the objectives for vs. Ken are clear:
Don’t get stuck in the corner.
Don’t be super offensive.
Bait SRK
Play superb footsies
Be cool about fire safety


#10

Correction… kara’ing hayate with HK is AMAZING for your footsies… Puts you out of range of a lot of normals and allows you adequate time to read your opponent/punish a whiff.


#11

–random ken shit–

-post ex hayate
dash cr jab dash is the timing for a meaty if they quick rise (you have to slightly delay the st fp, karakusa, etc)

-If you block a jab shoryu you can reset with st strong dash forward and do a backwards fukiage which will meaty them on landing

-fp shoryu on parry is free jumping combo (slightly delay your jump after parrying it out)

-if you red parry the first hit of ex fb (after a poke) you can hit them with an ex fuki which goes under the second hit of the fb. You can also red parry the second hit and get free st fp/cr strong/karakusa (range specific)

-3 hit of shippu parried is free neutral jumping combo

-cr short on parry is free short or fwd karakusa unless cancelled into shoryu super

-st strong-> cr shortxhayate is somewhat iffy against ken (hayate will whiff in certain situations generally better to use st short after a st strong confirm)

-post karakusa ken slides back further then most characters (important if you are trying to combo into sa2 from max range. If you do not want them to slide back you need to get the fp link as early as possible)

-hayate or cr strongxhayate every blocked sweep, if you parry the sweep it is free dash in karakusa.

Edit–
st rh kara hayate played with a little I do see some uses for it. Although I have spent more time looking for more optimal punishments for things on block parry

like doing n.jump tsurugi-> hayatex2 (second one can be ex for more damage) against a blocked Oro ex uppercut

But mainly I have been looking and finding some situations where one can punish with a double fukiage (90+% stun with not meter cost and knockdown is pretty sweet)

*corrected ex fb red parry punish


#12

Just gonna add here: I saw Mimora do a HK kara-hayate AFTER I started doing it… So, you know, it’s legit and that makes me a cool cat:coffee:


#13

Bump