Questions, answers, specifics! Spill it!
Reserved for videos!
Gen has too many moves, I generally try to dispose him as quickly as possible.
To me, he’s one of the matchups which I would go agressive against. If you give him time, he has lots of tools to confuse you…
Hado owns the skies and cr. fp and knock down > safe jump mix ups owns his ass. Just learn his jumping arc and that’s half the battle.
Eventhubs has this match up 6/4 in Gen’s favor, I thought it was the other way around. Gen has a bunch of armor breaking moves, but they are all punishable or escapable except the pressure he can use with handz. I just love it when he flies off of the wall to stomp Gouken on the head, only to have it blocked and lose 40% of his health for taking the risk.
I’m in agreeance here, you can chuck fireballs and just wait for him to come to you. cr.mk and cr.hp stop him cold on jump ins. His off the wall is pretty useless if you are not an advanced Gen user using them for ambiguous crossups on knock down. Hands pressure just puts you back out at a range YOU want to be at, not where Gen wants you to be.
Can some-one post some Gen wall jump attack punishment tools? Is Gen safe after having this move and its variations blocked?
Aside from a well timed U1 and EX Tatsu, what are some good counters for this move?
On Gouken’s knockdown, Gen’s wall jump vertical flying kick will provide an ambig crossup. Gen can pull shenaniGENs (harhar) after roll attack, which is throw punishable. But they will sometimes throw in the upkick to catch your throw attempt.
For Gen’s Oga’s, if Gen’s kicks lands below the waist, then they are -4 on block. So if Gen uses the short dive kick oga, Gouken can jab Gen if he is frame perfect on the punish. If Gen uses the long divekick to hit Gouken below the waist, I don’t think Gouken has any move with enough range for a punish.
Now there is an easy way to tell if the oga kick that drops vertically will be a cross-up or not; depending on which side of the screen Gen touches first. If Gen goes to the wall furthest away from Gouken first, the vertical drop kick will cross-up. If Gen goes to the wall closest to Gouken first, then the vertical drop kick will not cross-up.
The ground game appears to be in Gen’s favor because even Gouken’s longest normal poke, his sweep, is out-ranged by Gen’s cr. mp. Gen can patiently approach from the ground and get into that range where it would be difficult for Gouken to play footsies against Gen. It is best if Gouken avoids that range and takes the battle up close or far away.
You guys mind if I link my Gen vs Gouken matchup info here?
Its meant for Gen to win, but it shows all of the answers my Gouken friend uses vs me (gen player)
@moleman Gens largest poke is now st.hk since AE
Post whatever you want related to Gen in this thread. All information concerning the matchup is welcome. If you post things Gen can abuse it only helps us to learn as well. Can you post your information rather then linking it though? This way people would be more apt to read and discuss it here.
st.hk has always been his longest poke.
If you’d like we can play some stress free games where you can focus on working on your ability to get around fireballs without caring if you win or lose. I know I often go into games with the mindset that I will practice this or practice that but as soon as I start losing I fall back on what I know because I don’t want the other guy to think I don’t know what I’m doing. I find I learn the most and adopt the most in games I’m not interested in winning, games I truly could not care less about losing. If you want to play 10 or 20 games like that let’s do it.
GT is Stodgy Bastige
Oh I intend to copy my post in text, sorry for the wrong terminology. I am on my phone at the moment, so I will post it later tonight.
His st.HK had shorter range than his st.MK in Vanilla and Super.
Just a few tips (may be useful, may not be):
Any variation of Gen’s Wall Dive is -3 at best. You can counter most with neutral j.HP, just be careful as some players may kick short on purpose then punish you with DK. He wouldn’t dare do a random, non-psyched wall dive against your fireball wall however. Cannot say anything about cross-up dive kicks as what you have to do to avoid it depends on what timing Gen does the setup (Back dash doesn’t work on Gen’s who do dive kicks late, reversal timing cr.MK doesn’t work on those who does it early, etc.). Just don’t get forward grabbed by him as he doesn’t have a lot of cross-up setups against Gouken.
Always do a 7f safe jump setup if you have one against him and he is knocked down. It blocks his EX DK (MK/HK will whiff provided you’re crouching) and counters his LK DK in which you can follow up with a ground combo. Just be careful when he has a Super because he can do a reversal crane Super to catch you in the air. If he doesn’t have one, then he either has to block or back dash. After you block his DK, don’t think about waiting him to land and punishing him as he can choose to input his 2nd kick at his will. Simply do a reversal LK tatsu and you’ll catch him. Feel free to do blockstrings against him as he doesn’t have a reliable non-EX reversal, and Gen players are usually afraid that they will get countered out if they try with a non-EX one. They will try to get out with a back dash eventually. Feel free to pressure him with GFs after making them block your heavy punches.
Edit: When I am saying a 7f safe jump, I mean with regular jump-in, not GF dive kick. Speaking of which, how many recovery frames does a GF dive kick have? Can you block in the middle of it like a reg jump?
Never throw an EX fireball for a zoning purpose if you see his U2 meter charged up. His air U2 goes through projectiles. The only way to avoid it would be FADC back dash (well timed) after throwing it. Be careful for regular fireballs as well. Mix them with a few far st.MP.
You can probably forget your high Kongo in this match as most of his main footsie tools hits your stomach (and some your feet), unless you are sure he is jumping in on you with a normal, of course.
Oh and, if he tries his blockstring with cr.MP xx Rolls, make sure you do a low kongo after blocking his cr.MP, not a mid one.
There are 3 ways he can get past your fireballs: jumping (gets owned by MP/HP fireballs in certain distances), focus dash (most reliable way), and crane cr.MK (it’s not a slide so he will stay where he was before the move)
I do not think an oga kick below the waist is -3 on block. The way I concluded that it’s -4 is by seeing which character can reversal DP after blocking an oga kick below the waist. I’ve tried using Dan, who has a 4-frame DP and he can reversal DP Gen after blocking the oga kick below the waist. Sagat, who has a 5-frame DP, cannot.
Also, I cited Cr. Mp to give an idea of how dangerous Gen can be in footsies. His St. Hk is his longest range poke, but it does not lead to more guaranteed damage like Cr. Mp. If the Cr. Mp is canceled into hands, it may lead to super or FADC combos. Since his Cr. Mp already out-ranges all of Gouken’s normals except for Gouken’s St. Mk, I think it is pretty bad for Gouken to be in that range.
Oga can be -3 (and block Dan’s DP) if it is timed/distanced perfectly. However, it doesn’t matter much to Gouken anyways.
Like you said, Gen’s cr.MP range isn’t an ideal range for Gouken. I think he should either be rushing Gen down with constant HP canceled GFs, or in a full screen distance chucking fireballs. If he really wants to play footsies against Gen, he needs to outguess him. Luckily it is slightly easier than others since Gen’s mantis walk speed is really slow for a footsie character. Walking with crane means automatically adding 5 frames to a footsie normal’s startup. At least that’s how I feel Gouken should handle Gen.
Ok guys, I wrote this last week, learned a few things since then, such as Ex-Demon flip not being strike invincible, go ahead and criticize.
This is meant for the Gen forums for the Gen vs Gouken matchup, and its not even posted yet!
They intend to sectionalize it I think. This is an opinion, and when I wrote it I wrote it thinking of the ideal capabilities for both characters. (Im looking at you Dio, if you read this, dont troll me with it, whatever we are doing i’ll literally get up and leave.)
Guess noone found this useful enough to comment on it
Even edification’s are welcome.
It’s good stuff man, tho I think you underestimate how good Gen’s footsies are in this matchup. Gen can stand right at the edge of focus range and destroy gouken.
You have no reason to block high against Gouken. His dive kick does not hit overhead. Only his command one (d+mk) hits high and it has terrible hitstun. Outside of that you need only worry about his terrible one hit overhead. So the fireball > EX flip to sweep should never be a problem. Be wary of the throw instead.
Regarding his wakeup: EX tatsu does not hit crouchers that are attacking. You can go low all day so long as your opponent does not start using low counter. EX flip is completely invincible for 20+ frames. Basically until the first frame he is able to hit a button. If he wake up flips you have a few options, walk under him and crouch jab (or any chainable/cancellable normal) to knock him out of it, and if you are feeling saucy you can Ultra or combo hard. I wouldn’t do anything but crouch jab though. You risk too much. NEVER try to throw him. I see this a lot (since I play Gouken). Throwing people that just “jumped” is ingrained in your head, the timing is in your head, it’s automatic, you don’t think about it. Your fingers just do it. When Gouken activates his kick off the EX flip it stops for a second to activate the kick, this split second throws off that timing you have in your brain and you whiff the throw, he lands and back throws you. Don’t do it kids. Counter you need only throw to stop, or armor break on his wake up.
As for Full screen dash to catch you with EX tatsu, yes that’s true, but it is also dependent on when YOU jump. If you jump late over the fireball you are all his. Jump earlier and you are ok. Notice how this is all trending towards Gouken needing EX…
As for jumping on him when he has EX, you have to do it on top of his head. EX tatsu has a hit box out in front of him making for great reach, but if you are attacking him with a jump in so that basically the centers of your characters are aligned he can only counter or st.hk. EX tatsu has a slight bit of movement and no hit box above him.
I can only tell you where to exploit Gouken, I can’t tell you specifics though. Mix up between throws and going low/counter hits on Gouken’s wake up. He has to block/tech, or do a move that will lose to one or the other.
While his fireballs have a fast recovery they have a slow start up.
You don’t need to block any flip kicks standing. His slide should never be a threat.
Gens u2 is overhead, so watch out for that. Especially don’t telegraph mp fireballs, because he’ll just go through them, dont’ block it low.
Lost a match like this the other day. I didn’t play much of super. I was all proud of myself for baiting it too. Everyone was like why the fuck did you do something!? I was like I didn’t!! Then they said “overhead”.