Matchup in AE: Gouken vs Rose

gouken

#1

Gouken vs. Rose. Go!


Gouken AE Match Ups. MASTER Thread
#2

if your opponent respects your gouken at all they will systematically work themselves into or near the corners with backdashes and soul reflector evasiveness, let them find the corner but once theyre near the corner find a way in while avoiding her footsies…

bait U1 with hk gflip safe jumps, and U2 is vulnerable to gflip throw on startup so keep that in mind


#3

This matchup is fucking impossible vs a great Rose. That’s all I know. You can’t zone her cause she reflects or absorbs and your one speed fireballs aren’t fooling anyone. You cannot punish her absorbs or reflects.

The best you can hope for is that you somehow magically get a knockdown before she starts her systematic assraping of your life through chip spirals that are safely spaced so she can backdash or counterhit you.

If you get a knock down a great rose will focus absorb backdash anything you do. This is where you are like lol just sweep her on the backdash, then she stops backdashing and you sweep and she blocks and you just lost your only advantage and you are back to struggling.

Maybe I’m being shitfaced pessimistic but I never felt like this up until a month ago when I played this rose player in manhattan offline. His GT is sksksksk22 or something like that, you can find him in the Rose forum. Maybe you can beat him online, and I’ve beat him a few times as well, but he has 7 wins for every one I get. It’s sickening.


#4

This match up is fairly difficult but not hard. Much easier since his U2 is not longer a get out of jail free card.

For zoning. Do use fireball, but charge it, vary the timing. If rose reflect too soon, let it go and make her timing really awkward. She might be forced to block or try reflect with tight timing and eats it, or make a predictable reflect you can palm right through. If she jumps over, just kongo or anti-air.

But once she is close up there are literally no answers. Her slides, her block string, her spirals, all are very difficult to get out. you can only hope to use early dive kick to stuff her anti air and get the hell out of there after some damage is done. If she have U1 ready though you will have to stop, since it will beat all early GF options.

Overall an uphill battle. But doable.


#5

get into a safe distance so when you fireball be on the ready to demon flip air grab when she reflects it, that will put you into an advantage to start the mixup game. otherwise zoning is very difficult against rose you got to play the super slow-lame-it-out type of game.


#6

Does. Not. Work. If you throw here it’s cause she let you. She is not in recovery frames by the time you get across the screen. The Rose I’ve been playing backdashes and then starts her spiral scarf shit on me. I literally had to resort to kongofest 2099 to stop her pressure game. The guy learned how to max space his c.mp so my kongo explosion misses and then he punishes. Matchup is utterly ridiculous.

He also sets off his ultra 2 from across the screen and then fires off a lp fireball to follow in on me. Then he just sits just out of poke range tossing fireballs or does a set up for a level 3 FA (which you can actually throw as the FA goes off which is always good for laughs).


#7

for me it seems to work, at the moment that rose decides to reflect, an ex demon flip will get to her on time, if not then let her do the fireball game because her recovery on that isn’t that great and walk in to play a close up game with lots of frame traps. Remeber, a fireball is just an extension of gouken’s normals. If the Rose player reflects everything then go in close and start throwing out normals. Rose is a great character she was my secondary character until recently i haven’t been using her much, i prefer gouken over rose just because gouken, in my opinion, is a better character than rose is. I agree with you that it is a hard match up, but not an impossible matchup.


#8

I’m going to grab video next time I play this kid. If it is working for you, it’s cause the Rose is doing it wrong. I throw a fireball and immediately EX without even bothering to see if she reflects and it misses.


#9

After the update this match will be a bit different for me.
[media=youtube]iNTSED8ixgg[/media]


#10

This is probably well known, but alot of Roses do that fb U1 set up to get a jump of any range on the screen. You can bait this out with any jump, and then air tatsu to safety when the U1 is activated. For example I think takin flight may have been able to do it at 32 seconds in that match there. An mk or lk tatsu might even be able to land behind her in time to punish. If you just want to escape then a backwards ex one often does the trick.


#11

If anyone is home right now, can someone please test out an option select punish on Rose when she does safe spiral? Can you try to hit c.lp~sweep to try to punish if she stays put and sweeps if she backdashes? I need to put an end to that nonsense.


#12

Does not work. By the time Sweep come out Rose is already out of range. Her backdash is -really- good.

Also, in AE 2012 Rose have projectiles invulnerably on Soul deflection start up. Fireball game against Rose become pretty much impossible as she have an efficiently 1 frame projectile reflection move.

We can’t jump in (Air throw beats all our options) we can’t parry or focus since Rose can and do throw safe spiral out all over the place. We can’t do fireball, we are inferior in footise with her safe slides and safe spiral while being completely out ranged by her st.hk and out priority by c.mp. Our U2 won’t help us much. since it can’t punish projectile except maybe HP FB or a read. I have a feeling Rose is going to become 7-3.


#13

Lp palm should punish her backdash after safe spiral. Need to get on her to win. Easier said then done.


#14

But it wouldn’t punish if she just block, and then we get punish.


#15

I know that. I’ve accepted i need to take stupid risks in this match.


#16

like on her wakeup , jump in sweep, mpalm to get her in backdash but you gotta make a good read , or lp.fb>fpalm as she may try to backdash on wakeup and soul reflect, again this involes a good read.


#17

You can option select her wakeup no problem with Ex tatsu. Just focus dashing on wakeup ruins that.

EX tatsu will cover all her wakeup options including backdash, EX spiral and soul throw.


#18

Wow that’s an amazing wake up pressure tool. I’m going to go test this out now.

So if I’m right, after a sweep we have at the very least free chip/throw set ups/ flip throw set ups or an ex tatsu? I was a bit skeptical about that ex tatsu wake up option select, but since the tatsu beats everything I’m gonna start doing it right now.

This is the phunkism cl.mp (os ex tatsu) > regular combo , on wake up thing?


#19

No, it’s the plain as can be safe jump o/s EX tatsu. If you know her down, safe jump her with an OS of EX tatsu. if she soul throws it will whif and you’ll EX tatsu her, if she backdashes you’ll EX tatsu her, if she ex spirals you will EX tatsu her, if she blocks or gets hit you are free to do whatever you want.

If she focus backdashes on wakeup you are on your own because it will count as a hit and your OS won’t come out. You’ll be tempted to safe dive kick OS EX tatsu ~ sweep but the problem is once she starts blocking you just gave her a way out of pressure. Ideally you want to be able to cl.st.mp after teh blocked safe dive kick to make her fret over a forward throw back into safe dive kick or a counter hit into a knockdown combo, but the focus dash ruins that because you will get st.mp into nothing and a reset.

I’m basing this all off my experience playing sksksksksk22 offline. It was really hard to maintain pressure on him and even harder to get in a position to do so. If I can lp.palm him off a guess and get him to stop backdashing after spirals it would make him have to sometimes stay in the range I want her in with some added pressure. I’d be able to cr.mp or st.mp cancel in 2012 to some something to perhaps keep her pinned down. or even lp dash forward throw or something. As it is now after a blocked spiral my options are to watch her backdash freely out to a range where her footsies own mine and I can’t do anything, throw out an attack that is too slow and gets beat my cr.mp or EX spiral, or kongo but I can get dash thrown or, with someone like sk, he has learned to space it to be immune to kongo blast radius.

It’s pretty god damn frustrating. I’ve gotten a lot better as a player since then but I doubt I can deal with this still.


#20

I am a Rose player. Yes sksksksk22 is a very good Rose.
In this matchup nobody should use fireball (except close in block string or so) :

  • Rose, because of gouken’s palm, that can easily punish her (Her FB recovery is very very bad)
  • Gouken, should not as well, because it’s easy meter for and you do not want to give Rose an easy combo into Spiral xx Super each round.
    Rose, can either absorb, reflect or even slide under your FB(it’s easy against Gouken) which is the worst case for you

In this matchup, I do not agree that a good Rose will move close to the corner : if she does so, Gouken needs only one flip to get close. Then this is the end of Rose, especially if you have some meters. So I would rather directly try to take control of the center and push Gouken to the corner.
So this game is a lot of footsie until an opening is found. Rose has the advantage of better footsie tools especially with the range of her moves. But if Gouken succeed to land a combo, he does much more damage.
Gouken HP (or C.HP I am not sure) does a good job, as well as your stand HK. Focus on reaction/prediction her non cancellable moves such as sweep and stand HK. Gouken focus has enough range for that and I really fear that.
Gouken has some good blockstring/frametrap IMO. Use them because there is not much Rose can do to punish in between blockstrings even unsafe.
And most of all!! Learn to punish spirals: This is the key in this versus.

  • First, you have to learn to recognize if a spiral is safe or not ! If the spiral is safe then just do not press a button except if it is a invincible move. Rose cannot throw you from a safe spiral, she is too far away. So no need to untech !!
  • Second, You have to learn to move in order to make spiral whiffs or unsafed : then punish hard.
    Some tips usually unknow from others than Rose’s players:
    From max distance C.mp(or C.mk) xx spiral does not combo. Id the C.mp(or wathever in fact) is blocked then it’s NOT block string from whatever distance.
    Also C.LK,C.LK or C.lk,C.mp on block is no blockstring!! So if you see that Rose does not interrupt her strings on block then you can certainly kongo her between the moves.

On Rose’s Wakeup, I believe a move OS with Gouken Flip (light one I presume) beats Rose backdash. Tatsu may work too.

So well, not a very intensive matchup, when both players are good.

I have a question : Does kongo punish Spiral ? because if yes, then this mean you can completly shutdown Rose spiral chipped game .

Hope it will help :slight_smile:
Note : In AE2012, only EX Reflect is projectile Invicible so it will be kind of expensive to use this FB invulnerability.