Maximum punishment/comprehensive punish list

ryu

#1

fellow ryu players,

melody here again with (hopefully) a helpful guide on how to make the most of your punishment opportunities. there are so many combo possibilities in sf4, that when paired with the scaling system, make it hard to judge which punishes dish out the most bang for the buck. this thread is to inform everyone; i took a lot away from the process.

less can be more, and as bruce lee adopted the sculptor’s mentality of “hacking away the unessentials” in his pursuit of the consummate martial art, this thread represents my humble attempt to distill ryu’s vast combo possibilities down to the barest essentials. these combos are the hardest hitting, most practical, and most meter efficient.

probably the most practical application of this reference guide is facilitating a simpler decision-making tree (i.e. less branching and variance), because it minimizes the many variables in sf4. once ingrained, your probability of reacting with the most effective and appropriate option drastically improves. thelo writes about this very concept in greater detail here: Strategy Corner: Quick Guide to Reaction-Based Defense

absolutely feel free to contribute. my hope is that this thread can be of some assistance on your road to winning.

cheers!

  • melody

FORMAT
combos will be filtered into one of two lists (essential and unessential), and then ordered by lead-in move, maximum spacing, and damage (generally as a function of meter use). ultra combos will have their own sections.

NOTATION/TERMINOLOGY
xx = cancel into the following move
, = link into the following move
jab/strong/fierce = weak/medium/hard punch
short/forward/roundhouse = weak/medium/hard kick
low = crouching
f./n./b. jump = forward/neutral/back jump
lead-in = opening move/combo starter

() = many of the combos in previous versions of the list were redundant, save the lead-in move (e.g. f. jump fierce). for consolidation and readability purposes, the move listed in parenthesis is situation-dependent and therefore may not always apply. the damage listed at the end of the combo does account for the lead-in move. an example would be if you telegraphed a hadouken and punished with f. jump fierce, low fierce xx fierce shoryu. in a situation where you blocked the opponent’s shoryu, the “ideal” punish (obviously dependent on your meter and desire to corner-push), would be the same combo, minus the f. jump fierce. so low fierce xx fierce shoryu. these two combos can be expressed in one instance.

close = most normal moves in sf4 have a variant that is only triggered by your character being very close to the opponent. “close” also implies that your character is standing.

PUNISH RATIONALE

  • as combo filler, a) low fierce, b) close/standing fierce, and c) low strong, low fierce are generally interchangeable depending on your preference and confidence in your spacing. i prefer option a) as the stick’s position makes shortcut shoryus easier to execute (down+forward, down, down+forward). with option a) as a baseline, option b) nets an extra 10 damage on average, and option c) nets an extra 30 damage on average.

  • a), the solar plexus, close forward link and b), the solar plexus, low fierce link are generally comparable in terms of damage. the low fierce link nets anywhere from as little as five, to as much as 30 extra damage over its counterpart, and at the cost of tightening an otherwise two-frame link. again, this is dependent on your own valuation, and confidence in your execution. however, omitting links altogether is at times preferable. an example would be when comboing into super or ultra, the damage gained from these links is negligible, if not overall detrimental due to scaling, and put at risk your ability to connect super.

  • on a related note, the solar plexus, low jab, low fierce link, as a more consistent variation of the solar plexus, low fierce link, generally falls behind both a) and b) links in terms of damage. it is generally suboptimal with all respects. there will be the odd example for illustration.

  • when punishing on the ground (i.e. not off a jump-in), there are generally two combo paths, one stemming from low fierce and the other from solar plexus. these punishes are highly determined by match-up experience, knowing what you can punish on block, reaction time, and many other factors. experiment and see what best works for you.

  • the corner opens up two distinct combo paths for ryu, one stemming from ex tatsu and the other from fadc combos that cannot connect midscreen due to pushback. the ex tatsu path generally has a lower execution barrier, and contain less moves/require less memorization. the fadc path is generally more execution heavy, but rewards the player with more damage. i will outline both paths in this reference guide.

  • any punish involving ex shoryu is categorically suboptimal.

  • barring corner combos, any punish involving ex tatsu is categorically suboptimal. in ae 2012, ex tatsu was “buffed” with a vacuum effect to better guarantee all hits, but its total damage was nerfed to compensate, sort of neutralizing the buff. fierce shoryu does just as much damage and costs zero meter. save that meter for an fadc or super.

  • barring ultra setups, any punish involving ex hadou is categorically suboptimal.

ESSENTIAL
MIDSCREEN

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx fierce shoryu: 318
    note: 344 if you link low strong into low fierce, but spacing is very strict.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), close roundhouse, low forward xx rh tatsu: 342
    note: the jury’s out on this one. very good damage and corner carry for no meter, not sure if a one frame link should be listed in an “essential” punish guide.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), close forward xx hadou xx fadc, low fierce xx fierce shoryu: 395
    note: replacing the close forward with low fierce works but has very strict jump-in spacing and may be character-specific. not sure if worth the extra 10 damage.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx jab shoryu xx super: 480

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low forward xx rh tatsu: 256
    note: occasionally the most damaging combo ryu has access to considering meter and jump-in spacing.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low forward xx super: 360
    note: see above note.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low roundhouse: 190
    note: ryu’s sweep has a fraction of an inch more reach than his low forward. if you’re sweeping specifically for the knockdown (i.e. there are more damaging combos available to you, but you’re opting to sweep), the damage can be maximized by linking the sweep after two low strongs. the total damage will then be 271.


  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx fierce shoryu: 372
    note: 379 if close forward is switched out for low fierce, and 375 if forward is switched out for low jab, low fierce.

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx hadou xx fadc, low fierce xx fierce shoryu: 427

  • (focus 3), solar plexus xx jab shoryu xx super: 470
    note: 484 if you link close forward after solar plexus, and 491 if you link low fierce.

ESSENTIAL
CORNER

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx short tatsu, strong shoryu: 332
    note: this combo doesn’t offer “maximum punishment”, but trades 12 damage for 30 stun when compared against its counterpart, f. jump roundhouse, low strong, low fierce xx fierce shoryu. your call.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx ex tatsu, strong shoryu: 374

ex tatsu path:

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ex hadou: 404

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx ex tatsu, ex hadou, ex tatsu: 442
    note: sacrifices your corner advantage. your call.

fadc path:

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx hadou xx fadc, low strong, low fierce xx short tatsu, strong shoryu: 422
    note: this combo will almost guarantee a stun. i’m pretty confident this is the highest stun combo ryu has for two meter, netting 770 stun. so potentially a trade of two stocks of meter for an excess of 500 damage. use your best judgment.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx hadou xx fadc, low strong, low fierce xx ex tatsu, strong shoryu: 440
    note: strict spacing, a decent number of links, and less damage than its ex tatsu counterpart, but retains your corner advantage. your call.


  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx ex tatsu, strong shoryu: 397
    note: 404 if you switch out forward for low fierce.

  • ryu’s midscreen focus 3 fadc punisher is his best two-bar option in the corner as well.

ex tatsu path:

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx ex tatsu, ex hadou, ex tatsu: 458
    note: 465 if close forward is switched out for low fierce. sacrifices corner advantage.

fadc path:

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx hadou xx fadc, low fierce xx ex tatsu, strong shoryu: 442
    note: retains corner advantage.

ESSENTIAL
MIDSCREEN ULTRA SETUPS

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low forward xx ex hadou xx fadc, ultra: 437

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx jab shoryu xx fadc, ultra: 493

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx jab shoryu xx super, ultra: 556


  • (focus 3), ultra: 403

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx ex hadou, ultra: 467
    note: the ultra timing is very strict. may even be a one-frame link.

  • (focus 3), solar plexus xx jab shoryu xx fadc, xx ultra: 473

  • (focus 3), solar plexus xx jab shoryu xx super, ultra: 530
    note: 537 with solar plexus, low fierce link.

ESSENTIAL
CORNER ULTRA SETUPS

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low forward xx ex tatsu, ultra: 511
    note: 539 if low forward is switched out for low fierce. 437 if ex tatsu is switched out for ex hadou. low forward connects into ex hadou and ex tatsu at virtually the same range (a few pixels’ difference), so while the best punish in a corner situation is not debatable, low forward xx ex hadou may be more desirable when playing footsies as it is safer (i.e. you’re not punishing into ultra, you’re fishing to land ultra).

  • (f. jump roundhouse), close roundhouse, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ultra: 574
    note: character-specific and spacing is very strict, but ryu’s most damaging combo, bar none.


  • (focus 3), low fierce xx ex tatsu, ultra: 505

  • (focus 3), fierce xx hadou xx fadc, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ultra: 510
    note: situational. the hadou xx fadc component serves to push the opponent to the corner, making the ex tatsu, ultra link available to you where it otherwise would not be. you’d have to settle for the 473 damage from the next best option, the midscreen variant jab shoryu xx fadc, ultra. however, the comparative difficulty of this combo to deal an extra 43 damage may be an unnecessary risk. your call.


  • ex hadou, ultra: 364
    note: situational at best. works at pretty long distances, the furthest i could get it to connect from was 2.40 of the big training room blocks away. only caveat is the opponent has to be flush against the corner.

  • air roundhouse tatsu, ex hadou, ultra: 418
    note: also situational, and perhaps not optimal in an actual punish situation (i.e. more damaging options that are also feasible). landable from nearly fullscreen, up to ~3 training room blocks away. deals 388 when omitting the ex hadou.

BAD COMBO HALL OF FAME
note: i calculated many/most of these damage values in ssf4, and did not recalculate them in ultra due to the level of badness of these combos.

MIDSCREEN

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce, hadou xx fadc, low forward xx rh tatsu: 377
    note: bad use of two ex stocks.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx hadou xx fadc, low forward xx ex tatsu: 384
    note: this is just a really dumb combo for the cost.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low fierce xx hadou xx fadc, low fierce xx fierce shoryu: 405
    note: in the corner, there is a more damaging variation. midscreen, it isn’t really worth integrating into your game since it is both character and spacing dependent, and overcomplicates the branching in your decision-making tree for a few points of extra damage over the next best punish.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx jab shoryu xx super: 482
    note: the low strong adds 2 extra damage at the cost of risk, sounds like a great trade.


  • (focus 3), solar plexus, low fierce xx hadou xx fadc, low forward xx tatsu: 403
    note: there are just more damaging miscreen fadc combos.

CORNER

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ex tatsu: 416
    note: i understand this to be a lot of ryu players’ staple corner combo. damage isn’t bad, but you lose your corner advantage.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ex hadou, ex tatsu: 449

  • note: the low fierce link adds 7 damage. not worth risking guaranteed damage for peanuts.


the “poongko combo”:

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, low jab, low fierce xx hadou xx fadc, fierce xx fierce shoryu: 414
    note: there are more damaging focus combos with the same meter cost.

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx ex tatsu xx ex tatsu: 417
    note: there are more damaging focus combos with the same meter cost.

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx hadou xx fadc, low strong, low fierce xx fierce shoryu: 427

  • note: the low strong link adds 5 damage. not worth risking guaranteed damage for peanuts.

MIDSCREEN ULTRA SETUPS

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong xx low fierce xx jab shoryu xx fadc, ultra: 487

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx jab shoryu xx super, ultra: 545
    note: does more damage without the low strong.


  • (focus 3), solar plexus, low jab, low fierce xx jab shoryu xx fadc, ultra: 475

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, low fierce xx jab shoryu xx fadc, xx ultra: 508
    note: this combo without the low fierce does 491. the risk of dropping your ultra combo isn’t worth a one-frame link that deals an extra 17 damage.

CORNER ULTRA SETUPS

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ultra: 529
    note: any punish with more than two hits prior to the ex tatsu scales down the ultra too much.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low strong, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ex hadou, ultra: 519
    note: combo does more without both the low strong and ex hadou.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), low forward xx hadou xx fadc, low forward xx ex tatsu, ultra: 500.
    note: as ex tatsu now consistently connects from a max range low forward, this combo only really serves a purpose as a hit-confirm. switching out the second low forward for a low fierce (provided the spacing is right) will do 519.

  • (f. jump roundhouse), fierce xx hadou xx fadc, low strong, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ultra: 527


  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx ex tatsu, ultra: 529
    note: intentionally introducing a link into an otherwise guaranteed ultra setup for an extra 24 damage? your call…

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, close forward xx hadou xx fadc, low fierce xx ex tatsu, ultra: 498
    note: actually does less damage than the above combo for three times the meter cost. what a deal!

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, low fierce xx hadou xx fadc, fierce xx ex tatsu, ultra: 522

  • (focus 3), solar plexus, low fierce xx hadou xx fadc, low strong, fierce xx ex tatsu: 501

EDIT HISTORY

  • edit (4/23/10): made the layout easier to follow, added some combos, and resorted some combos.

  • edit (4/28/10): edited for super. recalculated his damage output, and listed the amount combos were nerfed by. in general it seems capcom made his combos gravitate toward ~475ish as a happy median (i know what the phrase is ;0). the way his new fierce shoryu works, as well as a healthy nerf to the ex tatsu (ex tatsu is a poor combo finisher now), nerfed his ultra setups by an average of ~60 damage. almost all of his combos are subject to damage reductions from 20 - 80 across the board.

  • edit (5/26/10): the comprehensive list of reversible moves is finally up! check it here: a list of every move in super reversible by ryu
    a friend’s loaning me a copy temporarily lol. in this thread, i’ve refiltered a couple combos and updated the list to include a new midscreen ultra combo.

  • edit (7/12/10): added some combos, shifted some combos into the unessential, and updated some unessentials with reasonings

  • edit (9/28/10): changed up the categorization of a combo

edit (11/28/10): added some combos, removed some combos, also was a little late in realizing that the low jab, low fierce link after solar plexus is almost always less desirable than the close forward link in terms of damage

edit (12/11/15): figures updated for ultra. generally layout overhaul with many redundancies being consolidated. most optimal combos in super remained optimal in ultra


#2

Just a quick question: How many hits did you get with that combo (still a noob on the damage ratios) I did a similar combo and it game me like 11 hits although I only got 3 hits out of that ultra. Just wanted to know if thats the same combo I mistakenly found…


#3

Yes, 3 hits is all you get from ultra if connected after juggling super.


#4

uhh combo overload. Having better combo notation would make it easier to read just copy the commonly used ones though it always seems to change from person to person but xx seem to be used for cancels, and commas are used for links, too many xx on this page imo:O.

I can’t believe you’ve listed Solar Plexus so much in a punish list, maybe for a combo list it’s fine but i really don’t use Solar Plexus punish nearly as much as others which are listed in the unessential list, and SPS combos are strewn everywhere here.

C.MP, C.HP, C.LP starting combos are highly essential punishers, quick startup + high damage = godly.

Also all lower case moves and xx makes it harder to read or atleast find what you want in the sea of combos.


#5

ah ok, thanks man. didn’t know that haha.

these solar plexus combos are mainly listed as ways around focus abusers and shoryu-happy shotos. low fierce isn’t a justifiable combo starter because in 99% of the situations where you can use low fierce as punishment, you can instead opt for the more damaging solar plexus. the solar plexus lunges you forward too, so it’s much easier to connect in situations where you’re trying to punish a blocked shoryu (as opposed to a whiff) since the impact pushes you back. alternatively, you’d have to walk forward manually and input a low fierce where you’d also run the risk of whiffing the shoryu or performing a super late, blockable solar plexus, as well as doing 20 less damage for no good reason. the only advantage it has over solar plexus is that if you block a point blank shoryu, it’s a little easier to time a low fierce.

combos starting with low strong aren’t justifiable for the same reasons low fierce isn’t. there is one, very small, super specific range where low strong will connect where low fierce doesn’t, and the only options out of the low strong are to link a low roundhouse for a total of 160, or any tatsu for 170 - 190. for such ranges, it’s better to use a low forward instead.

combos starting, or even including low jab also aren’t justifiable for the same reasons as low fierce, as well as the low damage from a jab not justifying the damage lost from scaling. the advantage of hit confirming doesn’t come into play here, because it’s assumed these combos are being used as punishment, rendering quick reaction time irrelevant. the only reason i would ever use a low jab in a punish would be after a solar plexus, because two two frame links are easier than one one frame link.

i’ve also revised the list a little bit – should make it easier to read. thanks for the feedback :slight_smile:


#6

You can’t sps a plethora of light reversals, I just Found that when I started ryu I focused on sps punishers and the lack of knowing or even using 3-4 frame punishers hurt my game. Maybe I don’t use sps enough now due to my previous sps spree.


#7

i’m not talking about solar plexusing a light reversal… i’m talking about solar plexusing a whiffed or a blocked reversal. in the situation you describe where a solar plexus doesn’t come out quickly enough to punish but a low fierce does, chances are you are using that low fierce preemptively, not reactively. which is not in the scope of this thread. the purpose of this thread is to give you the end all be all answers to situations where a huge combo opportunity presents itself to you, and you’re not exactly what the most damaging option is.


#8

Theres are a ton of situation where I have time for a C.mp or C.hp but dont have time for a Solar Plexus to punish. I think I punish much more with c.mp, c.mk and c.hp than sps. Bottom line I think its good to practice other punish even If you have time for a sps to improve your overall game.


#9

edited for super. this thread now details how much ryu was nerfed as well report his most damaging punishers.


#10

Cool thread just a couple questions…when u put ex hadu, ultra what do u mean by that, u can link the metsouhadu from a ex hadu wgo fadc? As well as air tatsu to exhadu to hultra? Is this new for super? I know in vanilla how to do air tatsu into super but now air tatsu into ex is possible? Aside from being able to juggle with non ex dps I haven’t discovered many new tricks for ryu? I see some of ur combos have cmp into cmk, is that sumptin new or character specific, it worked pretty inconsistantly in vanilla…is sps a practical punish starter if ur blocking from a crouching position? I too find sometimes my sps gets blocked or even worse only hits on the second hit and juggles my opponent making me whiff the dp.


#11

what up,

yea, ex hadou will link into ultra 1 in the corner without an fadc. you have to time your ultra 1 so you’re pressing jab+strong+fierce as soon as ryu starts to pull his hands back from the ex hadou. as for air tatsu to ex hadou, the opponent has to be cornered after the air tatsu and it doesn’t work for crossup air tatsus. this all works in vanilla.

i think you meant c. mp, c. hp (not c. mk). for starters, combos that have a low strong, low fierce link can only be used off of really deep jump-ins. if you follow that up with an ex tatsu, you almost always won’t get the full ex tatsu unless your opponent is cornered and your spacing is absolutely perfect, but combos that end in ex tatsu are really dumb in ssf4 anyhow due to the damage nerf. it’s half the reason why those combos are listed in the unessential section. however, the spacing on combos that end with low strong, low fierce xx fierce shoryu (i.e. the essential combos) is a lot more lenient and work for all of the cast afaik, though you still need to jump-in pretty deep.

as far as sps as a good punisher goes… it depends on what blocked reversal you’re trying to punish. if you block ryu or ken’s jab shoryu, sps can’t come out fast enough to connect if they buffer a block. but you can sps punish the hell out of sagat and akuma’s jab shoryus on block. you can sps after you block any cannon spike if it’s done at point blank; otherwise walk up, low forward xx rh tatsu. maybe i’ll make a list.


#12

Off topic: Why that “poongko combo” is called like taht? Link to a vid of that? Thx!

Awesome list Melody.


#13

double post delete plz


#14

Hey thx for the quick response melody. Word? I didn’t even know about that air tasu ex hadu in vanillla, news 2 me. I dunno maybe I misread but thought I saw a couple mp-mk-had-fadc combos in there.i I think there should be a thread specifically for the new advantagous stuff as well as this one listing the potential bad stuff. I kno its only been out 4 a day (I’ve had it since friday lol) but there’s gotta be some new tricks/moves in this version, I hope they didn’t just make him worse without adding any new perks. It seems that for the most part he just does less damage in his combos now. Is anything increased? The only thing I can see so far is being able to juggle with non ex dps.


#15

thanks man. here’s some videos where poongko busts out the combo at the gamestop tourney invitationals.

  • poongko (white) vs daigo: [media=youtube]ynmpwRQGXs0#t=59s[/media]

-poongko (white) vs wong: [media=youtube]0UZrWDcPXIY#t=4m28s[/media]

as for new stuff… i haven’t found anything yet. all of his combos have been compressed in damage and the only new thing he has is a strong/fierce shoryu that can juggle. you’d think his new ultra would expand his game but it doesn’t even have a fourth of the utility his u1 had. if i find any new combos i’ll be sure to post em here.


#16

Yea I’ve been actually usuing cody and juri, its too boring to pick him with all these new characters and no new/useful tricks. The only time I bust him out is if someone pisses me off 2 put them in there place lol


#17

Hey melody nice work, maybe you should ad this combo for punishing with ultra 1 mid screen

[media=youtube]Ko6zB38J_FE[/media]


#18

Wow thanks for the thread!


#19

I’m bumping this thread because this is really one of those that shouldn’t have died.


#20

definitely appreciate the kind sentiment man. it’s a long story; pretty much i’ve only spent two days (more like seven hours) with super, and i currently don’t own a copy of the game so i haven’t been able to update the list.

glad you can make use of the threadstuff jwang.

vandutch’s link is pretty sick. i’ll integrate that into the list once i can get my hands on super again and take that ultra setup a step further.

edit (5/26): list updated.