Mind Grid Coast to Coast / an in depth look at strategy


#1

This thread is suppsoed to be a grid layout akin to an RPG’s statistic screen(only it applies to Street Fighter & KOF players instead). These are the main statistics that all players have. Some players are better in some areas than others and vice versa.

mental energy - Mental Energy is how much mind energy you have. It it how long you can stay on the top of your max game plan. Game play dwindles as time goes on so you are not always going to be on the top of your game. Some people can stay on the top of their game longer than others. What they have more than the other players who cannot stay on the top of their game as long is mind energy.

judgement/reason - Knowing when to forget(to keep your mental forget clean) and when not to forget. Knowing when to finish with a super and when to save your meter for the next round.

strategical mental thinking ability - Your overall game plan. how much fighting ability you have(Someone with a bad game plan can beat someone with a good game plan by using the other statistics well)

mental forget - How long you can go without forgeting something, how many things your mind can hold. Some people’s minds can hold more than the next persons mind and vice versa. Likewise, some people can go a very long time without forgetting(simple example: Ken just landed two supers on you in 3rd strike and you are thinking of a way to come back(next round) but you don’t exactly remember how he landed them(how you got set up)

speed thinking - How fast you can think on the fly. Some people can naturally think faster than others and some can develop this talent overnight.

hand to mind dexterity(execution to you and me) - What the Japanese are known for. The Japanese are simply more mentally adept and have more hand dexterity than us Americans. The Japanese also can do more things at once than the American players can. They can pull off a high execution requiring combo and still use 2 other mind grid statistics at the same time.

If you feel as if I’m leaving out something feel free to chime in. I am looking for more perspectives on the way of 2d fighting games.

Now me personally, I feel as if I excell at strategical mental thinking ability. I tend to not go towards execution style characters in figting games seeing as how I’d rather use the easier character(for instance, I’d pick Cable over Magneto). Execution lowers your strategical mental thinking ability but if(and only if) you pull off your combo then it is not lowered. If you can get the same damage using less execution then you have more strategical mental thinking ability than the person who has to pull off more execution to get the same effect(this is the area that I excell at). Then there is the fact that that high execution requiring combos cannot be landed everytime unless your name is Squall Leonhart(a guy who started the gameFF8 with 255% dexteritymaxed out dexterity). The fact that the combo will not land everytime lowers one’s strategical mental thinking ability(overall gameplan) because you will expect your huge hitting combo to take effect but it misses and the opponent is constantly landing his less damgaging but easier execution level combos. Not to mention the fact that everytime you land a high execution level combo your mind energy dwindles as well.

I suspect that top players have figured out ways to maximize their mind enegy, mental forget(probably by playing chess) and other mind grid statistics. Eating good foods can help clear your mind as well.

All in all though it has to do with knowing when to forget and when not to forget(judgement/reason). At the end of a lost match you want to just remember the key ingredients as to why you lost(this ties in with David Sirlin’s brick wall strategy as well). You don’t want to remember the entire match because then you are wasting your mental forget. Your mind can only hold so many things and overloading your mind with hundreds of annotations WILL dwindles your mental forget which will overall dwindle your mind energy. So, knowing when to forget and when not to forget(judgement/reason) can be a key ingredient when it comes to saving mind energy.

Not everyone’s mind grid statistics are the same and there are ways to develop mind grid statistics.


#2

all my sga’s are weird right now, i can only pull it out full force when i feel cocky because im totally out of practise

i was at the arcade the other day trying out kof2k4 and i saw people playing 3s so i thought i aint played it in a while may aswell put a few coins in and i couldnt even parry LOL my ryu got his clocked clean badly and sean previous to that, but i warmed up to the controls abit so i picked sean again and totally dominated this (not bad) akuma player, but for only 1 round lol i just thought fuck it and started playing like a scrub like i have for nearly a year

everything you said there sounds spot on and im interested in the opinions of everyone who’s keeping up now in fighting games, should be a good read


#3

storyline vs. gameplay

STORYLINE VS. GAMEPLAY

Moves and strategies differ from different perspectives. This post is designed to take a better look at how we can enter mix the two.

In the real world, this is how Hadoken would work.

Hadoken - extension of fist, drains ki directly, better heght than Sonic boom, 3 levels of speed control - level 1 = lower damage, slow speed, fast recovery, longer charge, weaker stun, drains a small pint of ki, travels furthest, low density/ level 2 = average damage, average speed, average recovery, average charge, average stun, drains average ki, average density, travels average / level 3 = higher damgae, fast speed, weaker recovery, shorter charge, better stun, drains alot of ki, travels shortest, best density - corner traps, fake hadoken,

In the real world, Ryu would own us all. His strategical mental thinking ability is on par with a gods.

Here’s how it should go in the games(and Capcom should design their next game this way); First of all, there should be statistics(hear me out now). If Capcom wants to stay true to Marvel AND Capcom(themselves) then they’d follow my lead.

Example no. 1: Juggernaught is unstoppable(staying true to Marvel Comics). Meaning, Juggernaught has weight. Anyone with the slightest spec of intellectual power should be able to tell that being unstoppable means that you have infinite weight(to a certain degree) If I throw a rock at Juggernaught when he is walking towards me it will not stop him(no stun), if I throw a hadoken at Juggernaught when he is walking towards me it STILL will not stop him(no stun), if I project a Mega Optic Blast at Juggernaught it STILL will not stop someone who is unstoppable. So basically the Juggernaught should be able to walk through anything seeing as how he basically should have infinite weight(but not infinite hit points). Juggernaught should not be able to jump BECAUSE he does not have the muscle to weight ratio to allow him to do so.

Example no. 2: If Cable is in the midst of doing an AHVB and Ryu is in the midst of doing a Shinkuu Tatsumakisenpuukyaku Ryu should win out. Why, you ask? The reason why is simple… The wind from Ryu’s Tatsumaki would turn Cable and his beam around and Ryu would then end up hitting Cable on his backside. It is called Vaccum Tornado Whirlwind Kick. The vaccum wind from Ryu’s ki tornado would spin Cable and his beam around first, then suck Cable in from his back side while he is beaming in the wrong direction. This is how it would work in real life.

What Ryu’s Super Tatsumaki can do by the way:

Ryu - Shinkuu Tatsumakisenpuukyaku - sucks out breath, forces in breath, makes them dizzy, makes them wobbly, rattles their head, ki cuts them, physical cuts them, speed thinking, push back and forth, late and early attacking, move the blocking opponent’s hands, multiple hits

If the Juggernaugt hit Ryu once Ryu would be out(look at his size and strength). Likewise the Juggernaugt is slow and Ryu can easily dodge his onslaught(like Potemkin if GGXX). If Juggernaught did an Earthquake at Ryu, Ryu could blow the projectile back using his Vaccum Tornado Whirlwind kick. Juggernaught could then just simply walk through the projectile(taking damage of course) and the vacuum effect(someting only someone who is unstoppableremember now being unstoppable equates to having infinite weight could do). Ryu is Japanese fighter so he probably has the manual hand dexterity that the Japanese top players have. Meaning, Juggernaught would have a hard time hitting him seeing as how he could probably DP on contact(with the Japanese and their hand to eye coordination every DP is a psychic DP / it is like the hand to eye dexterity that I outlined in the earlier post / this is how it would come to play out in a real life fight between Juggernaught and Ryu).
Put it like this; he game would still revolve around footsie and a jockying for position but it’s just that the specs would be alot more realistic.

In my game, everyone starts at max meter and normals don’t build anything. Since Ryu is the better ki manipulater he would still have speed control(Juggernaugt wouldn’t). The only way to build meter is to summon ki Dragon Ball Z-esque(how it’s supposed to be done)

Normally one would think that if Ryu were to project a Shinkuu Hadoken(Alpha 2 style, not the beam) at Sentinel it would not necessarily have such a devestating effect. After all, look at how big and strong Sentinel is and look at how much super armour he has. Put it like this; what Ryu’s Shinkuu Hadoken truly does is violently shake and spin the body(hence Vacuum energy). Ryu’s Shinkuu Hadoken may not do much initial damage to Sentinel, but the after effects would be devestating. What would happen if Sentinel tried to block a Shinkuu with his hand is his arm would violently shake up, down, and around with so much force that it would probably do more damage than if Ryu were to just concentrate his ki into a typical straight foward blast of ki(direct damage and not the violent vaccum shaking). Sentinel would have to use his sensors to sense Ryu’s ki style(Vaccum) and then dodge Ryu’s onslaught. So here we have a dodging Sentinel about to stomp Ryu out of the multiverse and a Ryu who has just wasted his energy after projecting a Shinkuu Hadoken. BUT, what if what Ryu did was launch his level 1 Shinkuu Hadoken at Sentinel(who instantly flies over the beam with an attempt to stomp Ryu’s ish down) with a bold attempt to make use of the manual dexterous speed control timing that is a level one Shinkuu(travels much slower than a level 2, or level 3 Shinkuu). Sentinel sensors do not know what Ryu just did(if he did a level 1, level 2, or a level 3 right off the back / if you do not understand speed control you need to go back to basics) but he flies off right off the back anyway(as soon as he sees the hadoken). Sentinel, expecting a level 3 Shinkuu Hadoken get his stomping foot Shoryukened as what Ryu did was a level 1 Shinkuu Hadoken(longer charge faster RECOVERY).

Now What? You expect Sentinel to just fly sky high into the air like he does in the versus series? HELL NO! Sentinel has WEIGHT(not as much as the unstoppable Juggernaugt but enough) Ryu does not have enough power to launch a Sentinel so basically Sentinel can use his super armour to go right through Ryu’s psychic DP(a logical one up for Sentinel). But wait a minute, Ryu uses his strategical mental thinking ability(overall gameplan) to foresee Sentinel’s weight/super armour and ki cancel his jab Shoryuken into a Shin Shoryuken. Bam! Ryu wins the fight, right? Nope. Sentinel decides to detach a leg(the leg that is getting busted up / something only a robot can do by the way /a strategical mental thinking ability one up for a robot who in this case is Sentinel) and the fight continues as so…

The fight continues with Ryu(wasted his physical energy AND his mind energy) vs Sentinel(a busted up detached leg)

My two cents.


#4

Double You Tee Eff


#5

Word up. :wtf:


#6

Ryu best MAN because he is strong.


#7

Upon actually reading parts of the post, I have come to the conclusion that you’re an idiot.

Storyline vs Gameplay ftw.


#8

The more I get into this scene the more I find out that fighting game players are F-in wierd. But I actually agree wiht a lot of what dude’s saying. Mental Forget and Speed Thinking are my worst.


#9

its out there but it makes sense lol

come on people contribute to this with your thoughts!

susano the reason I didnt is because i no longer have been playing fighting games recently so you can say all of my attributes are pretty much dormant behind a hundred cursed seals lol which my first post tells you in a more interesting way


#10

I actually liked his first post, thought it had some logic behind it

the storyline vs. gameplay post just flew right over my head:confused:


#11

One thing the upcomers should remember is that everything you need to become a great player is right there in the match. You do something and the opponent has a reaction to it. Remembering how an opponent reacts and being able to have a flexible gameplan will basically win the match for you. As far as home training goes, you develop execution and you can create a gameplan based on what you have learned in battle. Another way of capitalizing on home console playing is to watch videos and kinda log how other players react to to each other and what is involved in their gameplan, the purpose being to emulate their strategy and learn to beat it, not to adopt it and play like that player to get better faster. All it takes to become a great player is time and effort. Obviously there are factors that can get you there faster; arcade experience, high level gameplay from your opponents, etc.

The way to having a great strategy is learning how to develop a game plan for battle, noticing the way your opponent reacts and his attempts to foil your gameplan, being able to see your opponents gameplan, knowing how to change your gameplan according to the way your opponent reacts, knowing what to use against what your opponent (matchups), being able to execute everything you want to do (a player with no strategy but great execution can beat a great player just by punishing their mistakes with 100% execution YOU’VE ALL SEEN IT), and lastly you should be able to do all this in battle against any opponent.

The key factor in all this is creating a solid gameplan and changing it based on your opponent’s abilities. This is something you can see alot with japanese gameplay, and it is very important in their style of play because they have single match-single elimination tournaments. That makes the player execute all of the above in one single match, setting things up, creating and changing patterns (most evident in CvS2), keeping opponents in a disadvantaged position to cover any mistakes you may make (mid level 3rd Strike), and using any factors available to defeat the opponent.

Hope this helps :slight_smile:


#12

That is, until he took 9 to his chest.
Last I checked, Karate uniforms < cheap but effective heaters.

Your “mental thinking ability” however, is on par with Street Fighter: The Movie.

(As opposed to physical thinking ability, Which I hear is more strategical)


#13

:confused:

i think you would of got more back up on this if you didnt share the second post, that kind of explanation should of been left to their imagination

its too bad people cant look past things that confuses them otherwise this would of been a nice thread, nice attempt anyway :tup:


#14

Umm… I have to disagree with the Japanese dexterity/multitasking thing. When I was in Japan, I played against some REALLY good players (Osaka’s main group), but besides the main group, there were more ppl around my level, and then ESPECIALLY at other arcades around, I SMASHED EVERYONE.

Remember, the Japanese guys you normally see in the vids are the best of the best… and I’m a mediocre CvS2 player. I got demolished by their really good guys, had really good matches with their mediocre guys, and smashed their news/scrubs for fun (including at arcades pretty much anywhere besides the main widely-known arcade for a general area)… only game this didn’t hold true with was GGXX, in which they almost all smashed me.

What sets their training and skills apart from our top guys in any game is the amount of competition and practice that they put into it. The have main arcades where the "in(skilled)-group plays, and there are ALWAYS ppl playing on a number of machines for the same game… we’ve heard this before… competition and practice against good competition swings right back around to… ->better practice ->better competition (seeing the loop). Arcades are dead/dying here, and there’s a different focus on what games we play. Even good players in good areas around here… maybe you go to the arcade and meet with 3-5 other decent 3S players on one cabinet with bad controls. Meanwhile, at MonteCarlo in Osaka, you might have a group of 20 guys playing across 3 back to back cabinets with nicely-upkept controls.
… flip side? we had more marvel interest (it was hard to find an MvC2 machine in Japan) and kinda… well… smashed them in that.

So, everywhere has a range of players. Where the peak depends on the available resources (knowledge databases) and the top end is generally determined, apparently, from level and amount of competition available in an area (is it a surprise I P-groove OCV’ed EVERYBODY for fun in the Japanese suburbs/old city areas, but got my ass handed to me in a main city area [Osaka]?).

Some things can be practiced alone (combos, execution), while others need to be practiced against people (reaction with strategies, obviously). But even if you’ve practiced a combo time and time again at home, we know it can be hard to use in the middle of a match and not being sure if you’ll get that lead-off hit or not (more of an MvC2 think I’m thinking).

~Mura


#15

Someone knows how I feel (in regards to the GGXX comment). It kinda sucks because those are the only people I have to practice against…

Interesting point which you have brought up, Susano. I’d say that my “stats” vary fighter to fighter. I primarily play GGXX which as most of you know, is fairly fast when comapred SF or KoF (and MvCII is almost there though). I’m what most of you all would probably call a scrub (in all areas OTHER than GGXX in anycase), but I’m gauging against the typical Japanese I go against which would come up as being below-average to average. My Venom game tends to have a bit more of the mental game to it, so I if I’m lucky I can defeat average skilled Japanese players despite my lack in overall skill.

On the subject of Storyline vs. Realism: it’s a very intersting concept that I would have half a mind to see. The “hardcore” side of me says that he wants to stick to the tried and true engines which have survived over the past couple decades since the days of the origional SF. However, the other is curious as to how these “realistic” matchups would work. It would most definitely give a new look to fighters, but the likelyhood of rejection by the tournament communities such as this one are simply too high to make it sucessful.


#16

all i saw in this thread is the shit about having multiple mind grid something somethings, and some part about storyline…

the G in fgd stands for GODDAMNIT


#17

:rofl:

You remind me of those guys who say “You just don’t like the movie because you didn’t understand it!”. Naw, I understood it perfectly, but the movies still crap.


#18

Finally, someone gets what I was getting at.

(Ki Shima) Thanks for the support.

So what makes the Japanese so good at fighting games besides their dexterity/execution? Is it a talent that we Americans can pick up or is it in the genes? If what the Japanese have is a talent that anyone(you or I) can pick up then perhaps it is constant competition. The Japanese get the game first and have the most competition(arcades keep themselves alive in Japan). Or is it in the genes and culture. The Japanese culture teaches people to all be like Ryu(they are strict when it comes to learning and such). Or is it in the genes(Italians and French are the best clothing designers, Blacks are the best rappers, and the Japanese are the best fighters/SF players). Alot of martial arts do originate in the Japan so perhaps “it” is just in their genes.

My personal opinion is that it is a combination of all three(constant competition, culture, and genes)


#19

nah man seriously u cant just say a film is crap if you cant gel with it thats like saying a countries food is crap because you cant gel with the taste (hey you pulled the “comparing” card so dont disagree) :rofl:

seriously tho that comment is narrow-minded man


#20

Regardless, there are some movies that are just pure crap, regardless of opinion. And I used the word “remind”.

What’ Susano-o really did was post up some scrub talk, and seriously racial stereotypes, but simply disguised in essays of jargon.

Broken down, his posts really say, “I wish there was a Street Fighter 4, this is what I want in it”, and “Japanese people are godly at videogames”.

Hopefully I don’t come off as condescending, but he’s pretty clueless, don’t get sucked in. :sweat: