Mix up your mixups?

I’ve recently noticed in alot of gameplay videos that players frequently mix up what mixups they do when an opportunity presents itself. What I mean by this is that they’ll forgoe the lower risk an/or higher reward mixup for another sort of mixup. For example, one type of tick might allow you to go for a throw or a cr. forward, and another tick may only allow you to go for a throw or a cr. short. Obviously, the first mixup as higher rewards for guessing succesfully. Assuming equal risk in initiatiing the tick, the first mixup is superior to the second. However, I frequently see people switching between option one and two.

This begs the question: why? All I can think of is that these people are doing different mixups so that you don’t have to reconstruct the gametheory/risk rewards table in your head before they’ve already forced their action upon you. In a sense, they’re trying to force you to make an uniformed decision, or make you failt to realize that a mixup exists in the first place.

In my opinion, you might catch unwary scrubs with these tactics, but decent players will quickly realize their potential options as well as yours. Therefore, I believe its best to always go for the mixup that presents you with the loswest risk and/or highest reward.

It’s hard to say without knowing the situation exactly, but I mix up my mix ups to keep my opponent off guard (the more he sees, the more he has to keep track of). Hopefully two mix ups will lead to information overload. Also some mixups require different timings and and different blocking patterns, if that makes sense. For example with Boxer, cr. mk, cr. mp, low rush has to be block low, anywhere, low and has relatively tight timing. Cr. mk, cr. hk, low rush has to be blocked low the whole time. In addition, there are gaps in between each attack where I could eat an SRK. However those gaps are long enough to make my opponent stop guarding sometimes. That may not answer your question, but I hope it helps.

Python9109, I disagree with your last statement and here’s why.

The very nature of a mixup is that it’s not, in itself, a for sure reliable thing. Usually, it can be countered if the opponent knows it’s coming. What you’re seeing being done is that the person doing the mixup is trying to condition their opponent for something that they intend to try later on. They’re doing different mixups for the purpose of…(insert fanfare)…mixing it up.

What’s the goal of a mixup? To catch and keep your opponent guessing. It’s a mind game. If you get predictable and always default to a certain strategy, your mixups will get stopped a whole lot faster. Plus, sometimes…the difference in risk/reward between two mixups may be negligible. Sometimes, they’re not…but maybe you don’t want your opponent to know that you know that.

Here’s a homework lesson for you. :slight_smile:

Go watch “The Princess Bride” and pay close attention to the scene where Westley catches up with Fezzini and Buttercup and they engage in their “Battle of Wits”. Make especially sure you have a sober mind as you listen to Fezzini’s “intellect”.

If that’s not the mentality behind mixups and mind games, I don’t know what is. :smiley:

Oh…and by the way, while Fezzini was trying to mix up Westley into giving away something, he was already defeated because…he didn’t realize there was a third option. :slight_smile: Mixups are all about throwing your opponent so off-balance that they succumb to an option they didn’t even know existed (because they either forgot or just didn’t know). Ideally…that option has the highest reward tag on it, but it doesn’t have to as long as you…

(Begin Al Davis, longtime owner of the NFL’s Oakland Raiders, mode)

Just win, baby!

(End mode)

Is this question applicable to Zangief?

I agree that mixing up mixups for the sake off messing up your opponent’s reverse timing can be effective, but in most cases, I still believe mixing up mixups is the wrong way to go. Frequently, a dp will beat all of your inferior mixup options other than blocking. Throws, psudo block strings, and overheads will all lose to the mighty dp. If your character has a true block string with throw and overhead oppurtunities along the way, that’s the way to go.

Example: If I’m Guile and my opponent blocks a slow sonic boom in the corner, he’s in for some trouble. I can follow up the boom and threaten to throw, or hit him low with 2 cr. shorts. For those of you who don’t know, guile’s cr. shorts take of a suprisingly high amount of health because they were never intended to be chainable. 2 cr. shorts do more damage than any of Guile’s normal attacks. If he stands up to dp or reverse throw, he gets hit by the shorts. If he stays couching, he’s vulnerable to a throw. I also have a couple more options off the shorts. I can do one cr. short followed by and overhead, creating the same high or low dillema for my opponent. In most cases, they’ll continue blocking low, expecting me to finish the chain. If I do 2 shorts, I can then do a cr. forward, sobat kick, overhead, or do nothing. During this last phase of the mixup, the risks/rewards is a bit more evenly distributed, but still in my favor. A Dp will beat any of these attacks if I do them immeidatly, but luckily there’s no pressure on me to attack. I can’t be harmed by doing nothing. My opponent, on the otherhand, can get hit by my high low mixup. If he does dp, I can punish it on reaction.

Now, please tell me, with all those great options, why in the world would I want to follow up the slow sonic boom with a cr. jab? Sure, the risks rewards might still be in my favor, but not by nearly as much. This first phase of this mixup is essentially the same as the last phase of the mixup above; a dp will beat everything besides initially blocking. I could always take a step back and then overhead or cr. forward, but again, I still have these options in the tertiary phase of the 1st mixup.

Depending on which character you’re fighting against, you could do c. jab and then wait/block to bait a reversal.
Baiting reversals are extremely important in a player’s mixup game, especially if your opponent is proficient in successfully reversing.

But I can bait the reversal with my first mixup as well, after the 2 shorts…

Edit: O yeah, I also get the change to “bait the reversal” right after the boom; if he goes for the reversal and I go for the shorts, he has no chance to get it out =)

I’d like to add that mixups in themselves pay off but can be prey to psychic dp, since most players mix up the moves in rapid succession allowing the chance for a reversal by the opponent due to a predictable rhythm.

“mixing up” the timing of the blows being mixed. A sudden pause between blocked blows may get a whiffed dp or flash kick, allowing for more carnage. =)

Also normal moves that look the same but do different damage can throw off an opponent. Most opponent’s expect the j.fp from Vega, followed by c.mp, and c.mp to block. How about Claw’s C.lp which looks the same as c.mp but pushes back the opponent less? Blanka’s c.lk looks the same as his c.mk and can throw off an opponent.

This throws off opponents who just can’t wait to counter.

EDIT: This mostly applies to an opponent’s successful block of the intended move, not so much successful attacks

start-up: 4
hitting: 4
recovery: 5
damage: 3
hit box: close range
get-hit box: flush against body

start-up: 7
hitting: 4
recovery: 6
damage: 9
hit box: mid range
get-hit box: mid range

Light attacks all stun for 11 frames.

I don’t know ST/HDR as well as I knew HF Guile.
And I do understand cr.Short is ST/HDR’s bread-and-butter cross-up combo string.

But it looks like a crouching.Jab will yield different usable properties than a crouching.short.
It starts-up faster.
It recovers faster.
(faster overall move)
It has a less vulnerable hitbox.

0:20 in
1:20 in (here Muteki fakes the crouching attack to bait an opening)

0:12 in

0:13 in
0:31 in

0:14 in
0:55 in

0:28 in
1:35 in
1:38 in

0:55 in
1:24 in
1:44 in

0:34 in

2:04 in

6:16 in

1:01 in

You can review more footage here:

I appreciate the response, but again, its irrelevant when I get them to block the boom. They’re in hitstun/nlovkstun, so the cr. shorts are 100% safe. And yes, I know the “greats” mix up their mixups, and infact, this was the point of this thread, challenging this strategy. Mixing up mixups for the sake of different tick timing is good though.

Sometimes it’s good to use a block string they’ve never seen before so that they don’t know how to defend against it. If I saw a new block string thrown my way, I’d be more tempted to sit there and wait to block more because I have no idea of what is coming next. You can then capitalize on this by going for a tick throw. So I think okay, he went for a tick throw after the boom. I’ll block the boom and the cr. jab high then mash throw like a moron. At that point you’ve created an opening for yourself to use cr. shorts again.

Then again maybe this only works on players that over think things.

Jab after a Boom:

  1. gives you more time to position before you have to get your move out.
  2. gives you more time to position or perform moves after your move recovery wears off. (more time to hit your next link, perform a move with start-up that the Short would be to slow to link, more time to play mind games with the opponent, etc.)

I have Yoga Book Hyper, and it lists some time differences from NKI/T.Akiba’s page.

Yoga Book Hyper:
start-up: 7
hitting: 4
recovery: 6

start-up: 7
hitting: 4
recovery: 7

In addition, when you interrupt the crouching.short into a Super or a Special are you linking or cancelling into the Super/Special?

In addition, the 11 frame block stun that FreshOJ stated doesn’t seem to work with the frame data for cancels with Yoga Book or T.Akiba/NKI.
I can link combo crouching.Short into Forward.Knee and the start-up on the Knee is 6 frames.
Math-wise the recovery+start-up between moves should be 12-13 frames, which should mean it doesn’t combo… but it does.
On top of that, I actually can’t seem to link the crouching.Jab into Forward.Knee… what’s up with that?

Is this Renda Canceling tricks?

In my defense, though, I got those numbers from NKI when I asked him about the length of hit/block stun. Maybe he can verify or clarify those numbers.

I hear xzibit likes to put mixups in his mixups so he can make you guess while you guess.

All good.

I just listed you in order to list the proper reference and give you props for posting the info.

I think the 11 frames is a good rough starting point we can adjust over time.