Mixup or No?

sakura

#1

Hello Sakura players. Our resident Sakura player has a problem, I think. He pretty much does not under any circumstance go for a reset mixup after EX Tatsu. For months I’ve argued that this is silly, as I believe that particular mixup is one of the strongest in the game. So I would like to gather some opinions from you guys. Below I’ve broken characters down in to various groups. What I would like to know is under what situations would you NOT go for the reset after an EX Tatsu (or if you just don’t use the reset at all like my friend, feel free to share that).

  • Character has invincible reversal that can lead to major pain with FADC (Ryu, Sagat, etc).
  • Character has invinicible reversal that just gets you off them (Chun, .Sakura, Honda, etc.)
  • Character has reversal runaway (Sim, Dictator, Fuerte)
  • Akuma (feel like he deserves his own category because he’s all of the above)
  • Zangief (…)

So you get a better idea of what I’m trying to ask, here are a few situations where you may or may not do a reset depending on your playstyle:

Do you have a large life lead?
Will you die to chip?
Do they have 50% to make their reversal safe/put them on the offensive?
Are you losing badly?
Are they playing Akuma?
Are you both low on life?

Now, I myself dabble in the Sakura trade. I am certainly not as experienced with the character, nor am I anywhere close to as proficient as the friend mentioned above with her zoning, normals, frame traps, etc. However, against our local competition I win as much or more than him with my Sakura. I believe this is because I utilize her mixup at almost every opportunity. To me, the only times it seems detrimental to try her mixup are:

-When you’ll get chipped by anything
-You’re near dead and they are one of the “50% makes me safe/gives me advantage” characters
-If they are playing Akuma and the round is roughly even (doesn’t mean I won’t mix him up, it’s just that his escape tools are too numerous and scary).
-Otoshi/Ultra will either kill them, or put them close enough to death that 1 or 2 normals will finish it (roughly 10%, I guess).

Other than that, I just don’t see a reason to forsake one of the most potent offensive scenarios in the game for a small amount of extra damage.

So…what about you guys?


#2

when im playing against a character that can just uppercut, i sometimes do reset and then neutral jump. if they try to fierce uppercut fadc they will go under my feet and end up on the other side, then i can just dash up combo into another ex tatsu.

i usually go for a reset everytime. the times that i wouldnt go for one is prolly if i were going to die of chip dmg.


#3

That’s true for Sagat, but Ken, Ryu, Dan and Akuma will all get you with their DPs.


#4

Kens fierce will miss… they miss me every single time


#5

Really? Sweet! :bgrin:

You’re certainly not safe from dp.LP though. :frowning:


#6

Against the first group, usually every single time. Thing is, if they see a reversal SRK works, they go for it again and you can drumroll block that and punish, or at least force them using 2 EX bars. Or space yourself to let the SRK whiff with backdash for sure damage. Also Capcom was gracious enough to allow a j.HK as reset against these characters, nice extra stun/damage.

I usually don’t bother with Akuma anymore, always gets out anyway. So I Otoshi him for good damage, and when he wakes up (untechable), jump backwards + HK. Stuffs reversal SRK/hits crouched, and if he wants to teleport you might get him with a c.HK after the jump too.

Against Gief, I usually dive under (for confusion) and then neutral jump, as j.HK beats Lariat… also funny if they try SPD.


#7

I don’t like resets too much. I use them, but I would never keep doing it for the entire round. A it’s a bad habbit to rely on them and b there’s a lot more to take from a match than just sticking to gimmicks. They just aren’t too fun for me and wish she had other options to compensate for them.


#8

I think it depends on the player as well. If you tried the first two times or so and weren’t successful maybe just pack it in and go for the guaranteed Otoshi.

I’ll always do Otoshi after a successful reset, don’t want to push my luck and quite a lot of the time it’s enough for a stun, if not it still puts them very close to it.

Luckily for me most the people I play generally aren’t aware of it and/or can’t react to it :stuck_out_tongue:


#9

I disagree. Sakuras strongest attribute is how she builds stun so quickly. This gives you the best possible way to stun your opponent the fastest, and odds are if you’ve dizzied your opponent you are probably going to win the match… .


#10

That’s what I mean, I don’t like basing my entire gameplay of 5050 situations. It gives you that extra dmg, but it makes moves like shouken and reg tatsu pointless when you have meter. It’s just my personal preference though, everyone else seems to love them.


#11

Here is my take on this… I always go for a reset mix up… Unless the otoshi is enough for a stun or a K.O.

My favourite mix up of all is the delayed jump. What I do is the dash>lp after EX Tatsu. Cross under and then J.Hk. They usually expect a throw or the start of a ground combo.

EDIT: If you people are so worried about a DP in your face then why don’t you block after the reset? Then start a combo when they miss the DP should they try it. Worst they can do is throw.

You have to remember its all a mind game. Just because a character can use a DP doesn’t mean they ever will/will spam DP.

Also a mix up should mean a mix up! Don’t just do what you see sabre do in a video. Mix it up EVERY SINGLE TIME.

You can do the reset the same way but what you do AFTER is the REAL mix up. Blocking after counts as part of a mix up strategy.


#12

People aren’t worried about dragon punches because they don’t know you can block it - they’re worried because the odds are stacked in the shotos favour.

When we do a mixup we have to choose between neutral jump, normal combo, cross under combo, block, throw… The shoto only has a 50/50 choice; DP or not DP. Thanks to SF4’s directional correction the DP will beat every option except the block.

So sure you can use mix ups on every character, but with some of them you have to train them to not do the stuff that beats them first.


#13

Also thanks to online play and that amazingly small reversal window LOL, if they smash out DP enough, they still might get it off.


#14

That’s what I meant. If you have already baited and punished a few whiffed DPs then you will have less of a worry when it comes to the reset mix up game.

This is why I find Sakura so much fun. You need skill to play her but you have to gamble at the same time :slight_smile:


#15

This is how I handle the Shoryukens.

After I get my opponent in an EX Tatsu combo, I like to reset the situation in the many ways Sakura can do it. One of the most basic ones is to dash up, st. LP, dash under and go for a cr. lk, cr. lp, blah blah blah combo and reset the situation again. This does not work on the entire cast, but simple adjustments can be made.

After dashing under them, instead of hitting the cr. lk button alone I hit cr. lk and lp and react to whatever my opponent does.

By hitting cr. lk an lp you can eliminate many options:

  1. You will tech a throw if your opponent decides to throw since you are hitting lk and lp.

  2. You will block the Shoryuken if your opponent decides to Shoryu.

  3. If they block they are forced to deal with Sakura’s beast pressure game because either a lk or a lp will come out and you can just go from there.

The only real trick to this is the timing. You have to time it so that any of the above options will be useless for the opponent. Do it too early and you could be countered by a shoryu. Do it too late and you could get thrown.

This doesn’t take care of everything I don’t think, but handles the Shoryuken gamble pretty well. This strat has been around for a little while too, but still usefull.


#16

Is this plinking? I think I’ve heard of this.


#17

What King Hefner just said is called option selecting.


#18

Wait, what? Option Select will automatically block for you if the poke has a chance of being countered? I don’t get it.

Let’s say I’m crouching next to a ryu that’s on the wake-up. I hit lp+lk the same time he inputs an srk. You’re saying that the lk won’t come out and instead, sak will block the reversal? Even though I input an attack command, it won’t follow through because it will get countered?

If that’s the case, SFIV is super easy mode. If not, please clarify.


#19

Because you’re not chaining, buffering or linking the new attack you don’t have to do it as soon as possible.

Note, my frame counts may be a little off since I’m pretty noob but the idea is here.

Consider this, first if you attack as soon as possible and the opponent uses SRK
Frame 0 – first frame with Sakura on the ground and able to attack. You use c.lk to try to start your mix up. Opponent inputs SRK.
Frame 3 – SRK still invincible, Sakura is kicking.
Frame 4 – SRK hurts a lot.

Now, if the opponent throws instead (and you end up attacking a frame late)
Frame 0 – Opponent starts throw
Frame 1 – Sak starts c.lk
Frame 3 – You get thrown.
Frame 4 – You would’ve hit him. (The bastard)

Now, if you delay a bit (I’m not sure exactly how many frames you need to delay to input an attack and also be able to block a SRK but I’ll say 3 for ease of discussion)
Opponent SRKs – you do a delayed c.(lk+lp)
Frame 0 – Opponent starts SRK
Frame 3 – You c.(lk+lp)
Frame 4 – Opponent’s SRK hits your block
Frame X – You punish blocked SRK

Opponent throws – you do a delayed c.(lk+lp)
Frame 0 – Opponent throws
Frame 3 – You c.(lk+lp), teching the throw.
Frame X – You punish tech’d throw (or continue fight)

What this does is: If the Opponent attacks you block because you haven’t input an attack early enough to become vulnerable. If the opponent throws you tech because you’re inputting (lk+lp) within 3 frames. If the opponent does nothing he has to low block the c.(lk+lp) which (hopefully) comes out as a c.lk. (It won’t start a throw since you’re crouching.)

This means that if you do this the opponent can only low block. You, however, have other options once you’ve trained him to low block including overhead, nj.hk and throwing and have mitigated his two most powerful options, throw and SRK.


#20

so this works on the assumption that your opponent is mashing reversal dp and gets it on the first available frame of wake-up, yeah? It wouldn’t work if someone delayed their counter dp by a split second due to actually trying to input the move without mashing it out (which is usually what good players do)?

The option select works on the assumption you’re playing a move-masher and not a player who calmly inputs commands as the situation arises. It might work online against scrubs but in terms of teaching good habits against skilled competition, I would highly recommend against the technique…unless again, I am misunderstanding.

Edit: I just reread it again and it seems to me that option selecting and believing it to negate/neutralize/counter a dp is misleading. Why not just crouch and block if you anticipate the dp? If nothing comes out, THEN you would option select and either hit them with lk as they’re walking in for the throw, tech the throw, or put them in block stun, after which you could tick throw or continue with an overhead, neutral jump or blockstring.