Mixups and confusion tactics

makoto
#1

this is basically based strictly on the offensive role of makoto. this will eventually have to be character specific. some help puting this together and compiling this into one complete post would be greatly appreciated. this is going to take a LONG TIME.

some of these are probably trash but if you give me the benefit of the doubt that they are then i will delete them b/c they are useless to be on here.

kara command throw mix ups

akuma backed up in his own corner, cr.feirce(hit),cr.foward(hit/blocked), kara command throw
…
mid screen any character, command throw, feirce, exrushpunch,dash,jump/early axekick(214mk), kara command throw on instant. (works only if not teched)
…
in close w/ any character, jump, short axekick(214lk), land,cr.lk or lp, kara command throw.
…
in close w/ most characters, strong, uoh,strong, kara command throw.
…
and of course the obviouses are in close, mp, kara command, strong strong karacommand, and 6strong kara command.
…
two good attack from air land commandthrow. would be jumping mk and mk axekick.
…
i also did this and it seemed to be tricky… they didn’t tech roll tho… directional throw, jump over thrown opponent, and simply commandthrow.
…
this seemed good at the time… strong cr. lp, dash cr. lp cr. lp, dash command throw. i was in the middle of a match but it seemed cool.
…
also is bait them to attack you high up a good idea? bait them to chase you and attack you high in the air but you’re not there you’re on the ground waiting for them to land into your command grab.

i’m newb w/ makoto but i’m doing better w/ her than any other character i’ve picked up.

#2

um… i don’t understand well your post… can you explait it better ?? O_o

#3

I don’t quite fully understand it either.

#4

i think he’s listing kara karakusa set ups >.> i think…

#5

tight

#6

basically. i’m acting like i’m going to fix this whole thing to make it a complete makoto offensive onslaught her big hobbit feet stuck in your ass thread… but i’m too lazy and smoke way too much reefer to actually go through w/ this. so… i’m merely compiling this for my own knowledge and whoever else is reading at the time… basically, a circle jerk thread for makoto. list some tricky shit you like to do… and then, get criticized… nah, seriously… i wanna get some tricky mix ups out in the open. having many viable options on offense helps makoto stay on offense. that’s what i like. that’s what i wanna do. simply, list some quirks you know about makoto that the average gamer might not know about… if it get repeated so what, don’t be an ass just ignore the post if you have already seen it. we aren’t in high school anymore… well most of us aren’t, so please… be civil. OR ELSE. :wink:

yooooo… how’s san fran treating you… come back to atlantic south sometime. i might be out there soon, my crazy ass job is teasing us w/ the “you might be going there” speech… which is cool, but still don’t tell me that b/c i wanna go.

#7

I got a bunch of mix-ups after beginning to play makoto seriously in the past few months… I think I’d actually post them if they werent so damn character specific… but my favorite by far… and works unbelievably often…

l.lk x jab hayate , l.lk x jab hayate (cancel) , kara-karakusa

#8

seems ok but won’t the s.lk kara hit the bigger chars such as alex/hugo?

#9

I think you got to many gimmicks just for the kara-karakusa. One thing I don’t like about gimmicks involving karakusa is that jumping, backdashing, dping, gets out of your setup pretty easily for all this list of setups. I find it best to just keep it simple and use karakarakusa when they actually block. If you want to start on offensive string, you probably should list your characters and what to do against their counters, etc.

#10

Well makoto is based heavily on gimmicks and mix-ups… at least thats what I feel… its just one of the post-hayate mix-ups i like to do, but of course, its risky against dp characters. in my experience most people tend to try to jump out of your karakusa gimmicks once they catch on (after exhausting a dp for those dp characters and getting punished for it ^^). unless ur playing a really good, and i mean REALLY good player, after the fake hayate a kara’d ex oroshi will make them think twice about jumping again ^^ then just go back to your other post hayate mixups.

#11

Since I’m really freakin bored today, I’ll comment one hour from my last post, lol. Gimmicks help when you play makoto, but it all comes down to is guessing. If you play too much based on gimmicks, your going to play on automode. You can’t beat good players with gimmicks alone. Mixups aren’t really gimmicks though. I like to think of mixups as just going with a tactic that counters your opponents. The best way to play makoto is if you know what your opponent is going to do then just counter it, or at least thats how i play her. I personally don’t like to do all sorts or variations just to get a karakarakusa when they are going to block anyways. The best way I can describe it is just play simple with solid fundamentals: good execution of combos, footsies, blocking, understanding opponents weaknesses, opponents strengths, etc. Michael Jordan doesn’t really rely too much on tricks to win. His fundamentals are just too good. Same could be said of a well played makoto.

#12

co-sign, keep it simple

mixups still boil down to some rock-paper-scissors type thing
there’s no reason to have 50 different versions of rock when they all do the same thing, unless you’re going for style-points

…worst metaphor ever

#13

2hai just gave a definition of what gimmicks and mixups are to him before going on with his post, that’s IMO the best way to make your point :tup: You could discuss for hours whether or not Makoto relies on gimmicks to win, all the while not even talking about the same thing.

To me a mixup is a guessing game where in a somewhat common situation you have a set of options that (for the most part) must be countered differently. DP’s have a way to kill mixups in that they counter multiple options. Option selects do the same. That’s neither here nor there though. Fighter theory go! Anyway, to me gimmicks are those techniques (usually risky) that are quite far from the expected/normal way of playing that the catch ppl off-guard. However, since everything can be countered and a gimmick is by definition (MY definition) a single technique, it will only work so often until people escape or counter it. In turn, you can counter their escape or counter attempt (usually) with another technique. In fact, MAKING it a mixup. So it’s really just apples and oranges.

for example, empty jump > throw, people have been doing it since forever, because since parries came into the world AA’ing was no longer safe. So, people started teching that stuff like it was the only thing to do, now you have empty jump Abare as an option to you. Sure, it’s a desperately high-stakes game of guessing AND so many things can go wrong. My point however is that empty jump > SA2 is a gimmick by itself, but empty jump > throw and empty jump > SA2 together are a mixup. Not a good one, not without ways of escaping, but a mixup nontheless.

#14

Wow, we’re actually having a good or at least decent discussion on a Makoto discussion thread. Good way to point out gimmick and mixups.

Yea gimmicks aren’t necessary good unless you have something to mix it up with in the whole overall context.

I think about the purpose of the thread, this is what i mean:

  1. akuma backed up in his own corner, cr.feirce(hit),cr.foward(hit/blocked), kara command throw

No with all characters in their corner, if you just walk back or foward depending on distance, you can do cr.fierce (hit) and then karakarakusa. WHy do you need cr.foward? If you conditioned them to expect a cr.fierce when they get up, they’ll end up blocking sooner or later for a karakarakusa.

#15

Agreed, the c.mk is just one more place where things can go wrong, and it certainly can seeing as how it’s parryable both ways. From my p.o.v. it’s just inefficient to try and go for the karakara like that. I believe it would help ppl a lot more to have a list of situations that actually occur naturally during play where karakara can be landed rather than a much longer list of ‘manufactured’ situations that serve only to set up the right range for karakara.

#16

whateva try some of these…

vs. yun and yang

standing lk and standing mp lk string in close sets up for kara command throw.

here are a few tech option strats. land in close crouching hp. dash in and watch for a tech roll. if there is no tech roll keep to your wake up game. ex axe, throw, tick throw. w/e you do. if you see a tech roll while you’re dashing, make 'em block crouching mk, then kara command. or w/e you wanna do. :arazz:

here’s another tech option strat. land in close ex axe. jump over knocked down opponent and look for a tech roll. if tech rolled, cross up w/ mk and continue on w/ whateva you do. if there is no tech, simply command thow or whateva you do.

directional throwing yun and yang and then jumping over is not a good idea, they get up too fucking quickly w/ out even tech rolling.

here’s something cute.

connect SAII that leads to corner, end w/ mk axekick, qcf mp, qcf hp. wiff standing lk or standing mk while your opponent is falling (opponent has to be in the air while you wiff). lol, makoto gets pushed back into max distance for kara command throw.

#17

i’m not going to walk you through every situation, you are a player too. these are just options, if you think there is something you can add, add it. the more options makoto has the more chances she is going to come out standing in the end. btw, crouching mk is not bad, bait out a parry attempt and then use it where it hits or blocks. :tup:

#18

something nice vs. shotos, probably works on most bigger characters too.

opponent jumping in w/ an attack or no attack. be optional, go for a parry incase they attack and go for a standing lp. if they parry your lp, go for another lp. either way if you see your lp connect while they are in the air. go for SAII reset if you are in range.

#19

watch for this when you’re a good distance away. watch for them to jump in. see if you can dash up and be in range for command throw or kara command throw when you’re on the other side. see if you can stay put and kara command throw them upon landing.

#20

agreed. jonnyquest it seems like you think of a lot of complicated things that probably wouldn’t work. keep it simple.