Momma Said Knock You Out! The Balrog/Boxer Super Strategy and Match Ups Thread

the original quotes from me were just a baseline to start off of. there have been a few posts on this thread that have been useful and i have taken those, quoted them, and put them in the appropriate match up sections. For the most part most of this thread has been generic, misinformation, or “lols x character sucks because i own them online”. I thank everyone for attempting to help out on this thread but there is barely any good/solid information being given out.

If you guys want to be quoted on the front page then work for it and don’t be lazy about the information you give out. If you look at the match ups you’ll see that I’m adding quotes from myself and others that give specifics as to what punishes what, what isn’t safe, and what is. Saying “play footsies because rog’s normals are better” isn’t quite enough to justify updating the thread. In reality you didn’t add anything to the table, as you should always be playing footsies…

Why don’t you use the information from the old thread as a baseline and then adjust from there for any differences in Super. That would make the most sense instead of waiting for a new post about the old information.

Also, a possible reason for not much new information could be because Rog doesn’t seem to have much problem with any of the new characters.

sure thing i’ll go check it out and see what’s useful information. but remember, the reason everyone wanted a new thread was because the old one was out dated with strategies that were no longer useful or generally accepted and the “good” info was spread out amongst the thread and was hard to find.

The blanka matchup is similar to the Honda matchup, except that you can reversal all blocked balls with a dash punch, if you get hit, you can reversal with jab dash punch on hit (at the right distances).

Electricity is his general anti-air, don’t jump on him, unless its a safe jump, electricity can be beat with dash low and crouching sweep at max distance, you can even grab him out of it on start-up.

In this match st.HK and far st.HP are your friend. Go in training mode and know your spacing, good blanka’s will space appropriately so the lp blanka ball whiffs at your feet so they can grab/surprise forward and grab etc. Stay out of this range since it’s just out of the range of all of your normals. St. HK and HP will trade/stuff blanka balls, so it’s a great match opener since it doesn’t put you at much risk.

You can reversal his ultra (if you’re not in block stun) with an EX HB, otherwise you can wait until he’s done and time your reversal ultra in his recovery to hit all on the ground, if you’re timings off it’ll juggle otherwise it’ll hit full on. The timing is similar to reversal ultra for blocked blanka balls too. Its usually best to attempt to block cross-up ultra, but really I’ve got no clue how to avoid it all the way (maybe neutral jump?)

On Honda, you can reversal dash punch all of his headbutts except lp, special/poke during his hp hands to standing HK, sometimes they miss the link, but use it sparingly since they can bait an oicho. As seen in Jav1ts thread http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=212305 Trick #5 is helpful to punish honda’s ex headbutt. Super gives you a leg up in the match since it takes away all of honda’s safe chip options from max distance, and you should be using any ex moves against honda.

On a sidenote, I’ve found that the best honda strategy against balrog (since I played the match alot) is the wake-up guessing game. I.e. honda knocks down rog, and does two moves, lk butt slam, and oicho. Honda has other options, but those two are important because you can’t just block/backdash since blocking could get you oicho’d, backdashing could get you in the downward part of his butt slam. EX headbutt is an option, but he can always just block, oicho and start all over. Stay on your feet the entire match, punish every possible headbutt to shut it down and save your super to end him on the second match. The last thing you want with honda is to have to close a match when he’s at 10% health, between honda’s turtling and the damage scaling, you’re looking at a tough time.

There should be a scrub version of the match up list for people like me.

I always feel at a natural disadvantage against Guile, and Chun-Li, Sagat, and sometimes Dhalsim

Dictator and Honda are other characters where I have a hard time understanding why it’s so cut and dry 5-5.

People have to remember that advantage isn’t about what you’re supposed to be doing to win, it’s about the amount of effort it takes to win in comparison to your opponent.

I have a hard time doing the extra patient thing though so I too am at fault.

Few notes on Blanka:

  1. Walk him to the corner, as in walk a short distance then immediately block over and over.

  2. Blanka players typically won’t spam ball since you can punish it with a lp.dash straight on both block and hit, but if they do then spam c.LP to beat it out, this will also beat out whiffed ball into mix-up tricks and electricity as well.

  3. If you’re at a distance where your c.LP can’t reach and the Blanka can’t whiff a ball then don’t spam c.LP because they will be able to counter poke you. Instead just block whatever poke they do and punish. His pokes may have large hit boxes and can lead to knock downs but they have horrible frame disadvantages. Many Blanka players will attempt to jump if they find themselves at this range.

  4. If they jump then do c.HP, if it’s a cross-up do s.MP, if you react too late then just block and deal with the mix-up. His jump animation is fast so don’t AA unless you can do it early.

  5. Once you have him in the corner stay at a range where you can catch his jump ins with c.HP. From here it all depends on how well you can react to his jump and AA appropriately. Any type of ball is severely punishable in the corner to the point where you can land a full super/ultra. Use a combination of c.LP, c.MK, throw and blocking/punishing to keep him from trying to attack you in an attempt to make space.

  6. If you have a substantial life lead then turtle and let Blanka attempt to get in on you, don’t take risks, especially ones that can lead you into getting knocked down. If you get knocked down use reversals sparingly and focus more on just blocking/teching throws accordingly.

  7. Don’t waste meter on ex specials, you won’t need them. Instead save it for a super so you can combo into it to get that life lead you need to start turtling.

  8. Don’t use headbutt as your main AA. It’s slow start up combined with Blanka’s fast jumping makes it unsafe in many situations, for the most part only do it if you notice the jump early and plan on landing ultra after it. Also replace headbutt with dash straight in your combos.

This match-up is definitely in favor of Balrog but don’t take it lightly, one knockdown from Blanka is all it takes to swing the momentum. If you get knocked down don’t panic and try to mash out a reversal or poke, just put up some solid defense until you can make space. I hope this helped anyone who was having trouble with the match-up.

Propose to me how we could possibly make a scrub version of a match-up strategy? Half of the time we just list what you can do to beat/punish their moves and what they can do to beat/punish your moves, and give you a general idea of what you should be aiming for. Information like that is pretty standard and stays true whether the players are scrubs or pros, it’s up to you to apply it in an actual match.

Added to front page

How do you guys get in on dhalsim??

You cant jump, dash punch, tap. Walk forward is pretty difficult without eating a couple fierce punches. If you turtle, he can throw a fireball and do a 50/50 guessing game with teleport.

Once you do get in, his throw range seems to be better than rogs it seems ( correct me if I’m wrong) and its very hard to get damage in on someone who can tech really really well. That and if sim gets super you can’t jump or dash punch or else you eat it.

This guy I play is pretty damn good. It was an even match in vanilla sf4 but now I find it pretty damn hard.

If you felt the match-up was even in vanilla then what exactly changed in super to make you feel that sim suddenly has an advantage. Despite the various buffs/nerfs to each character, the flow of the match-up is still exactly the same. Doing a simple pattern of walk/block with the occasional well timed jump will always be the best way to get past fireball zoning patterns, it takes quite a bit of practice to understand how to use it.

More damage and better throw range. The throw range makes it very very hard to punish him trying to tech cuz I would get thrown if I do c.lp, walk back c.lp to bait tech throw. He doesnt do option select tech so I cant really use standing hk to beat that.

Your ways to get in on Dhalsim I believe are:

  1. Walk forward and block.

One of the most effective ways to get in on him really. Just keep blocking the normals he throws at you and you eventually be able to push him back slowly. This way means you’ll take next to no damage getting in, but also will most likely take the longest.

  1. Jump forward.

Another effective way for any character to get in on Dhalsim. The point is though, don’t make it obvious you’re gonna jump in. This is where your patience comes in. Don’t just jump in willy nilly trying to get close. You will get AA’d by good Sim players. Be patient, walk forward and block and get a feeling for when he wants to fireball you in his keep away patterns. When you think he’s gonna throw a fireball, that’s when you should be jumping. During this walk forward block period, you can also mix in a bit of walking backward. i.e. block one of his normals and then walk back a few steps. Why? See if he fireballs. Take notice that if he does takes this walk backward bait and fireballs, dash ultra or super if you have it.

  1. Headbutt through fireballs.

A stupid way of getting in against Sim. Don’t even try it.

  1. TAP.

I’m not talking about TAP through fireballs. TAP through normals. You can do your usual walk forward block business. But charge TAP during your blockstun and then release as he pushes his next button. His normal will whiff and you get either a hit TAP (huzzah!) or a blocked TAP. Still huzzah, since you’re right next to him and you can start your pressure from there. There is an actual secret third option… he throws you right out of TAP because you’ve been abusing this trick.

  1. FADC

He throws out a limb, you FADC forwards and block. Or you can gamble even more and FADC jump. A few things to consider with FADC’ing limbs. If it’s a jab or short limb, you’ll get smacked for even more damage. FADC a fierce or roundhouse limb is what you want to be doing. At the right distance you should be able to jump in and force Sim to block. At the wrong distance you will get AA’d. If you FADC a strong or forward limb, then it’s best you just FADC forward and block since he can throw out another poke and stuff you jump in on the way up most likely. Another sneaky trick you can do? Hold all three punches and forward, or hold all three kicks and strong. If you FADC a jab or short limb, you’ll be hit out of your forward dash regardless. With any other strength limb however, FADC forward and only release the three buttons when you see their next poke and you’ll be right next to them just like in #4!

  1. EX punches.

These can be effective as well. You can tag Sim for EX RU > jab > HB > Ultra if you have it from about 3/4ish screen away I think. At the very least 1/2 screen. Not a good idea to just throw out randomly. They can either throw quite easily on reaction and make you do all the hard work of getting in again. Or they can EX Flame to break the armour. On reaction too. Or super. This is if you do them RANDOMLY. Again, you have to observe their keep away pattern and try to do one at the right distance against a heavy poke. I always use rush upper because it can combo. Although EX Smash works well too because of the knockback as well as knockdown. The others… not so useful…

You’ve got six different ways to get in on Sim… I didn’t mention just dashing in actually… that is also something to be used sparingly if you notice they’ve stopped pressing buttons. Each has their own level of risk/reward and none should be abused except for #1. It’s up to you as the player to know which is best for what kind of Sim you’re playing.

As far as I know throw ranges are the same and Sim doesn’t have any kind of kara throw. So in other words your problem is that Sim now has more damage. Did he get buffed so much that the match sings from 6/4 in Rog’s favor in vanilla to 4/6 in Sim’s favor in super? I mean seriously, the match is played exactly the same way with the same flow. If you knew how to deal with him in vanilla then nothing significant has changed to alter your strategy.

Don’t know if it has been posted already but against DeeJay the last part of the Ultra Juggle will wiff after a headbutt if done KPKKK not in the corner. However it will hit if done with PPKKK :wink:

speaking of which, anyone know if there’s an updated overhead follow-up chart for the new characters?

Oh, and I did some random testing and it seems as if the cr.lk whiffs when doing a rush upper loop against juri, I think for sure you’d have to do cr.lp to st.lp to have a workable rush upper combo.

c.lp to c.mp. Harder link, but means you can headbutt.

I thought that this didn’t work on certain crouching opponents. Like most crouching opponents.

the front page doesn’t give much advice on the vega matchup. i’m getting owned left and right by vega players. annoyingly the matchups i struggle with the most now are chun, guile, vega, and ultra2 abel players.
last night was one vega after another on psn, and a bunch of guiles sprinkled inbetween. i’m pretty comfortable now actually with the guile matchup because someone posted a helpful link to some tips on how to beat guile’s tools but vega there’s only 2 lines on the front page. i’m pretty sure the reason i’m losing to vegas is lack of practice and not the fact that the character just has options over all of balrog’s offense.

any pointers would be much appreciated.

Vega’s got no answer for rush down/pressure. For a vega to win consistently, they have to control the match. With balrog your focus is to scare him to flip in range for any of your knock down normals.

PPP (double) flip > walk throw
KKK (single) flip > sweep

Jump back FP beats super.
You can backdash or TAP through his Ultra 1.

Vega’s definitely better, but knock him down once and keep him guessing. Jumping HK Will stuff/trade with his flip kick, beware of tick throws and his non-comboable overhead.

Pressure Vega into a corner, make him lose his mask and tick throw him to death. It’s a hard match if you’re trying to hit vega full screen, or he’s controlling the match, but if you’re in his face he’s got no moves with enough invincibility frame to get out of a bind except flip and that’s easy to punish.

Vega’s equalizer in the Balrog matchup is the Izuna Drop, top vegas will spam this full screen to kill your backcharge and grab you.
Options:
[LIST=1]
[]TAP will get you away, but you can be grabbed during TAP
[
]cr.FP will hit him, but only if he falls on it, it makes it easier to grab you since you’re not moving.
[*]Jump back FP works as long as he doesn’t travel behind you on your way up, so no pre-emptive jump back fierce, only if he comes to you. It’s much easier if you’re already in a corner.
[/LIST]
This is only an issue if you don’t control the match, a blocked flying barcelona is a guaranteed TAP/ultra/super/<insert move here> Vega can’t take a hit, so knock the mask off and sit on it.

Late tap or headbutt beats vegas flying grab/slash thing.