Moves that are - Frames on hit


what exactly is the purpose of putting a moves in frame disadvantage on hit?

i understand that if certain moves had an advantage on hit they’d be too good but disadvantage?

the person successfully landed an attack but his opponents gets to move first after or even punish him with a fast enough attack. That doesn’t make sense to me and looking at frame data for fighting games shows countless examples of it.


Best example I can give is Rolento’s standing fierce in Alpha 2. It’s - on hit and the opponent can CC Rolento point blank. However, it’s a perfect anti jump move since it’s almost instant. But then you have Adon with his Jaguar kicks which have to be spaced correctly almost ALWAYS unless of course you want to eat a CC. Although I guess it prevents the move from being abused, more than often it just ends up preventing the move being used in the first place…

What gives?


Well correct me if Im wrong but you also have to take into account any kind of push back these move might have and also what moves most characters in the game have. For example say a move is -2 on hit, and say a shoryuken has 2 frames of start up, but its that characters fastest move. Then technically you are actually even on hit. Its when people are even on frames or at a slight advantage that allows for frame traps or combos. I guess some moves they just dont want you to be able to combo after.


Cammy’s close roundhouse is hella minus frames on hit. It’s probably a throw back from ST, when her MP, MK, SP, and SK buttons were all throws. With four (!) throw buttons they probably made her close roundhouse the way it is to act as a sort of ‘throw-whiff’. Same with her close strong, to an extent. Sadly, SF4’s throws are done differently but her close normals remain the same.

Sometimes there’s a good reason (or some reasoning) for a move to be minus on hit, and sometimes they just weren’t thinking.


Dark Upper for Armor King in T5DR and T6. They made it jab punishable now, despite it having inferior range to the mishima ewgf and having no pushback.

Unnecessary nerf.


I think Namco likes to have a lot of moves, whether they’re useful or not, just to pad the game’s ‘depth’.

Doesn’t Dark Upper launch on hit?


It does its basically ewgf AK style (same command). In TTT it hit mid, had longer range and was basically safe. I understand why they made it and ewgf now hit high (keeping it the old way would have been too powerful).

What doesn’t make sense is the Jin/Kazuya/Hei ewgf gives a pushblock on hit, has a bit more range while AK has less and and is straight up punishable.


one thing that confuses me about tekken and vf is i dont know what moves i’m supposed to use?


The difference is one is electric and the other is just dark. Can’t you do a throw off your crouch-dash, along with some wonky unblockables? Mishima’s get high/mid/low. AK gets high/mid/throw/unblockables. I mean, obviously they don’t want everyone’s crouch-dash launchers, or even mixups, to be the same.


the only time a - on hit move is totally useless is if it’s punishable by every character, can’t be spaced to be safe, isn’t cancelable and doesn’t have any use as an anti-air. that doesn’t really apply to a great many moves, but yeah those ones are pretty much useless. fighting game devs dont know what theyre doing half the time, what are you gonna do.


Some moves aren’t supposed to hit and serve some other purpose. Sometimes it’s just bad design.


Because if everything was plus on hit you basically have easy infinite pressure, parry mechanics notwithstanding.


Thats not true.


Thats not true.


Tatsemenmonkeymadpoo is not safe on hit.


Things can be positive on hit and not on block. The difference tends to not be as massive as SFIV, but it’s often there. I dunno if green blocking counts as a parry mechanic by whatever definition, but low forward to fireball isn’t exactly an infinite pressure string due to that crazy pushback thing anyways.

Uppercuts and reversal throws and supers don’t tend to give a damn how many positive frames you had either.


Ooooops. I was thinking on block.


Makes sense and I admit I didn’t think of it like that, but I still don’t see why DU has to be directly punishable. Negative frames, absolutely, but I don’t think it should be straight up jab punishable.


it’s still not true???


Well it depends on pushback, I guess. Whatever, I wasn’t thinking when I hit post the first time.