Movesets: How would you feel if anyone could use them?


#1

I know most of you have seen the vids of one char using another char’s moveset in games like SSBB and SF4. how would you feel about that being an actual feature that exists in the game?

what I had in mind is that each character has moves exclusive to themself (specials), a few movesets exclusive to themself, and access to a bunch of movesets any character in the game can use. sounds solid to me, but I’m just wondering how interchangeable you guys think normals should be. like, should you be able to set up every single move in a char’s moveset like in Pokemon? choose the entire moveset or have nothing in it at all? how would these work as far as tourneys are concerned (ex. default char settings only in tourneys)?

or is all this talk the work of the devil, and each char should only have their own normals and specials period, end of discussion?

edit: I want to create a game in the future, and I’m looking for insight on how people feel about this. so if you can, a point along with your opinion would be appreciated


#2

It’ll be stupid. Screw that nonsense.

End of discussion. Before people start posting about how they want Dan to have Sagat’s moves. Or how they want Chun Li to expose her panties like Sakura.


#3

that’s what I don’t get. why would it be stupid? is the argument “because then everyone would just use the optimal char and pick the optimal moves”?

to be honest, I prefer the latter talk. gives me some insight into what people like


#4

Stupid name making a stupid thread. Makes sense.


#5

>>>one char using another char’s moveset
MKA Kreate-A-Kharacter mode (KAK)
_Also known as Create an Infinite mode
__Everybody selects only best normals and only best special moves
___Everyone’s KAK has exactly same moveset online, and is beyond broken


#6

ty for input. argument does not interest me since I have a plan to negate it, but I understand what you’re saying


#7

You can negate brokeness? Something is either broken or it isn’t. It’s as simple as that.

Give the chance to alter command lists and special moves for characters would then make it so the game simply resorts to picking the best combination of specials and highest priority normals and simply over power your way to victory.

There is a reason why each character is different in fighting games. Competitively speaking, it makes the game much more diverse and makes it so that each character is different with their own unique play style.

If everyone could mix and match movesets, there would no reason to pick different or unique characters, This would simply give everyone an excuse to make an uber character and thus make every single match boring and the same thing over and over.


#8

it kinda invalidates the whole idea of game design, and the game would probably be incredibly boring to play.

I don’t get why people think that they can make perfectly balanced game systems while it takes a company of professionals 10 years worth of tweaks to do it


#9

It’s been done before, and its worked. ala SCIV custom characters.


#10

before we even talk about what broken is, we have to agree on a definition. is something that’s broken so strong that it takes no thought and is utterly unbeatable, or is it just good? and if it’s good, what is it good for? everyone’s assuming many things. first of all, that broken (I’m assuming “powerful & unbeatable” broken) moves will exist. second, that “the best combinations” = 0 diversity with everyone using the exact same stuff. one very easy way to make sure nothing is broken is to restrict or remove anything that is. and if that doesn’t work, change the fabric of the game.

don’t get what you mean by “invalidates the whole idea of game design”, unless your argument’s the same one others are making (best normals, best specials, win free).

I’m guessing that last paragraph is to lump me in with that group of people. first off, I never said that there wouldn’t be any tweaking… in fact, the tweaking part is where I hope to excel the most. second, that “company of professionals’s” ability is totally irrelevant to mine and vice versa; their problems aren’t mine, mine aren’t theirs.

I spoke to a friend about this just a while ago. although, I’m from the tourney mindset so I disagree that it “worked”. I don’t know much about SC4 but from what I heard from the same person, they didn’t even make an attempt to balance most of the alternate shit in the game


#11

See having interchangable movesets would make bigger characters just better. A good example is Tekken. If you play mokujin, and you get Roger’s moveset, he’s better than Roger is normally, because his arms are longer, so he’s got longer range. You would just pick a speedy/good character’s moveset, and then a big character model, and you’d be better than the smaller characters who are intended to use those moves.


#12

I ran across some similar thoughts. I’m still under the impression that in the type fighters that are out nowadays, bigger character sprite = bad, smaller = good. I don’t play Tekken so my best response to that is I think it’s just a different way they can be played rather than “better than those chars”


#13

Depends on the game I guess. But basically, Roger’s smaller size doesn’t let him dodge anything noteworthy that I’m aware of, but Mokujin’s longer arms let him hit from farther away, extend combos longer than normal, etc.


#14

Is this part of your “most broken fighting game ever” project?

Just give your characters high and low fireballs like Sagat, have them execute them with one button each, and give these moves no startup or recovery. Whoever mashes fastest wins.


#15

Just as a note, if you purposely choose not to discuss anything resembling criticism towards your idea and then act all passive aggressive the other half of the time, this thread is going to turn into a troll fest before America goes back to work.

On my last point, it invalidates game design because fighting game design on a broader scale is about creating stylistic differences. How the general playstyle of a game changes between games, as well as playstyles between characters and individual players. What you’re proposing would be either ridiculously broken and one-sided or a tedious amount of counter-picking. Think of it this way, most RPGs allow you to customize your character to a much greater degree that what you’re proposing here, but anytime you want to be competitive in one (high scores, PvP, etc), there are only going to be a few viable builds, maybe less than 1/10th of the available options.

It’s sort of like why most mugens suck (though for a variety of reasons), because they’re focused on putting in as many options and characters into the game as they can, instead of having a focused direction in their design.


#16

:rofl: actually, no, not only did you get it wrong (worst char, as in weak. not most broken char. i’ll change that now), it has nothing to do with that

I’d see all these vids of chars using another char’s fighting style. I thought it was sad that the way the games are designed allowed for the style switches to happen, but they don’t allow its use. I wanna say right now that I don’t want to encourage taboo changes (ex. Balrog with kicks, Honda doing Vega’s wall dive, [media=youtube]maDe7_5ds7c&feature=related"[/media] very funny Guile in a serious ass tourney), etc. I wanted to know how people felt about it.

and acutally, the more I think about it, the more I think I’d rather much have chars with a traditional moveset

not trying to be aggressive, passive aggressive, nor unreceptive to ACTUAL criticism. in fact if I’m ANY bit wrong, actual criticism is the first thing I wanna hear. however, just getting back “You’re stupid” is fucking irritating

to me, all of this type stuff people are saying about there being only a few viable moves, one-sidedness/brokeneness, etc. as theorizing, mainly because it works under the assumption that certain stuff WILL make all the other stuff irrelevant. isn’t that dependent on the way the game is designed? for instance, different games have different levels of broken shit. in certain games, you can play the chars that are at the bottom of the tier list and dominate good people, but then there’s other games where you literally CANNOT play bottom tier chars and win against any decent person who picks upper tier.

let’s get an example scenario going on here. If you were playing ST, what would customization there look like? what would be the broken shit there? would everyone there be using the same char with the same setup?


#17

I wouldn’t mind something like 3rd Strike’s super art selection, but for specials or normals instead. Not a totally customizeable moveset, just a few options to personalise your character. Obviously they’d have to be balanced well or you’re just going to get a situation where everyone uses the same moveset (a problem 3rd Strike had with characters like Chun and Yun for example).


#18

well yeah, basically. Most characters in ST have a couple of normals which are either useless or overlap with the function of a different normal, and nobody has all the best normals in the game. We can argue what customization would be best but for example, a good character to make is taking ryu, keeping his specials, but with bison’s standing mk, chun li’s stand strong, and chun li low Mk. He can then pretty much respond to any situation and zone like crazy, and does not have to care about intelligently keeping people away while controlling space.

I don’t understand why you’re so angry that people theorized your idea would suck when all you’ve done it theorize to begin with. I mean, what are we supposed to do? Find evidence for something nobody’s ever bothered to make?

And it’s easy to make a perfectly balanced game. Just only put one character in it.


#19

to the bold: who told you I was angry?

with the ST example, Bison’s standing MK would be wonderful on Ryu instead of those shitty kicks he has, but I don’t like the idea of fucking with his crouching MK at all. don’t even see how that’d be optimal, but I’m not that hard into ST.

as for that balanced game stuff, meh. that’s a simple way out, but what if you want variety as well? I’m not really from the school of thought that a game’s balance has to be skewered in order to have a lot of variety. I say if one game can do it and manage to have differences between the selection, any game can do it


#20

It would be good if every character had access to generic normals that were universal to the entire cast but the generic normals would have to fit the situations where they mattered the most. Like good generic AA for every character, good generic high crush and good generic low crush. So out the gate, there’s a rock, paper, scissors game that everyone can play.

In 2d fighters when you talk about character diversity, a big part of that discussion is what do the characters normals look like. Its a great way to give a game diversity but some characters get screwed like this. Like a character having bad AA or another having short hit boxes. If there were a generic set of normals that applied to common situations well, every character would of have tools to deal with the situations that happened the most.

The diversity can come from something else rather than basing it on set normals. There’s still speed, other normal sets to consider along with the generic ones, +frames and -frame stuff, alternate engine mechanics etc…

I’ve always hoped for a free form fighting game. Something along the lines of fight night total punch control meets virtua fighter. I want to control the speed of my normals, the angle they come out @ and the ability to attack each spot willingly.

The one see you don’t see in 2d fighters in the concept of momentum. Like chuns c.jab from 3s stopping s.rh from 3s ken. She’s throwing out a minute jab while ken has huge momentum on the move, yet hit box placement is the deciding factor. In fight night, they throw wild punches if hit while punching but the concept of momentum is still there.