MTUP or Spoiler? o_O

fei-long

#1

MTUP

O_o

details=Spoiler

o_O

Current

2 day poll. Anonymous vote. All for Fei. Either or is cool as we will continue to post and update whichever is chosen, but we want all to agree on a basic format.


#2

I think it would be best for the MTUP, cause only that thread will be about what character.


#3

Given updates, the meat will always be available under the spoiler. Discussion is not crippled in that manner. The only other difference would be linking to a character match-up vs clicking a spoiler to reveal a character match-up…and our difference in basic organization patterns and language in the OP. Good point though.


#4

I’d prefer to discuss one particular match up in one thread. Maybe someone will find it more organised with spoiler tags in the first post. But it’d be easier for discussions the other way.


#5

I like a blend. Adding spoilers for MTUP would increase organization and allow you to quickly skip to a certain section of the match-up:

  1. General strategies
  2. Move A
  3. Move B
  4. Etc.
  5. Tendencies, patterns and mix-ups to watch out for

Adding these drop-down spoilers (or something similar) to the original MTUP set-up would really help clean it up a bit and make it less FAQ-like when it’s completed.

I just feel like having spoiler drop-downs for individual characters could still leave a lot of room for clutter, especially in the way the character match-ups are posted. For instance–no offense to the OP–but judge_rl seems to favor clean-cut lists and very short notations which may or may not capture the point behind a particular tactic.

By using a blended version, there’s a greater inclination towards full explanations rather than abbreviations of each tactic, while still avoiding the creation of a full FAQ (as in the original MTUP format).


#6

I prefer MTUP for the reasons that have already been mentionned.
With one character per thread, we stick to one single topic.

In the case that the 1st post is always up to date, spoilers could do the job. But i’m afraid it just won’t. Therefore, if you want infos you’ll have to go through the topic by yourself and have to read lots of posts that you don’t care about. Example : I want tips on Honda, but there are a 3 pages long discussion about Akuma plus random posts about other match-ups. So we end up losing what we are working for : organisation and accuracy.
On top of that, the larger the subject is, higher the risks of derailing are.
When you have a thread by match-up, if you have a first post not updated you just read the thread knowing that at least, every single post in here will be about the character you have problems against.
As already mentionned, having lots of topic is a false problem. They won’t “get lost” and we won’t get them stickied either; New infos to add ? Searching tips for a not so popular match-up ? The match-up index is here to help you find them quickly.


#7

Nosone, what I have provided so far is not the full. It won’t be short and absent of tactical discussion, but the exact opposite. It will be as long as necessary to hit on the meat of the match-up. I don’t believe in cutting out important parts of match-ups, but I do believe there is a general method to every fight (e.g., throwing someone, anti-airing someone, focusing a poke, getting around fireballs, etc).

Starnab: “In the case that the 1st post is always up to date, spoilers could do the job. But i’m afraid it just won’t. (?) Therefore, if you want infos you’ll have to go through the topic by yourself and have to read lots of posts that you don’t care about. Example : I want tips on Honda, but there are a 3 pages long discussion about Akuma plus random posts about other match-ups. So we end up losing what we are working for : organisation and accuracy.
On top of that, the larger the subject is, higher the risks of derailing are.
When you have a thread by match-up, if you have a first post not updated you just read the thread knowing that at least, every single post in here will be about the character you have problems against.”

You just basically said that if the Spoiler thread is not updated it sucks to have to read through “3 pages” about a random character. On the other hand, you say that if the MTUP thread is not updated, you only have to read through stuff on that character. The same problem exists regardless: having to search through pages to get the info you want. That is not addressing the issue: updating the OP. Updates are not the argument here. It is simply about format/organization. When this is rolling, updating won’t be a problem I am sure for either format. Also, when the points are covered, you will see that updating won’t be necessary 24/7 unless some breakthrough takes place (e.g., SF4 patch that changes special move properties and etc).

Nosone: “I just feel like having spoiler drop-downs for individual characters could still leave a lot of room for clutter, especially in the way the character match-ups are posted. For instance–no offense to the OP–but judge_rl seems to favor clean-cut lists and very short notations which may or may not capture the point behind a particular tactic.”

:u: that is a contradiction :stuck_out_tongue: Another point that you overlook is that the OP is not going to simply consist of my info, but will also include quotes as any good thread would. Don’t count that out and make it seem like it is all me. SRK is too good of a resource to do such.

Again, the point is that the OP is supposed to be clean, while the thread is a garden of discussion and bouncing of ideas.


#8

Agreed !


#9

Yeah, you already pointed that out. :smile:


#10

Updating is a problem. We’re all humans, and we all have lives aside of Street Fighter. In the beginning, yes we will update the OP every time required. We’ll build solid 1st posts for every character (I hope so). When time will flow, we won’t be this dedicated and match-ups strategy is in perpetual evolution. We have to take this in consideration.

Concrete example :

I’m having trouble against Honda. I’m most likely to don’t have a clue of what to do against him. So, I’m not searching for a precise info but I’ll take any valuable tips that I’ll found…

MTUP thread :
I’ll read the whole thread that refers to the match-up against him and only him. I’m sure to not have to read chit-chat about how to deal with Akuma, how to counter Blanka balls, etc, etc… A-ccu-ra-cy. If you want general knowledge, you can choose to read any other thread and thus focussing on

Spoiler single thread :
You’ll read a thread full of subjects you do not care about. You don’t have the choice. There might be dozens of pages to that thread and when I just got my ass kicked by Balrog 10 times in a row, I don’t give a fudge about people having trouble with Blanka (no offense).

You’re trying to give counter-arguments to prove that MTUP solution is not better than spoiler. Well, why not. But I’d rather read arguments on reasons why spoilers is better.

EDIT : No one that voted for spoilers did either…


#11

Your point of having a thread all about one character is solid. I have already stated that this isn’t that bad. On the same token, I stated that it is even better when the OP is not updated. I counter this argument with the reason that when these match-ups are undertaken, that is when the job gets done.

Take Fei Long vs Zangief for example:

are you telling me that 6mnths down the road, Fei won’t be trying to stop Gief’s forward movement with pokes, counter rekkas, focus and anti-airing consistently? that when/if gief gets a knockdown, his options won’t change from x-up or empty x-up to spd or lariat or ultra or low short etc etc into ex green? fei won’t be baiting ex and normal green and punishing accordingly? there is no serious revolution to these match-ups in the sense that u seem to give it

And yeah, sure I am arguing for Spoiler. That is an obvious fact. There are numerous voices for MTUP even though some people also like the Spoiler fashion. If it is such a problem, look at some of the other character threads and see how successful it has already proven to be. It’s quite simple really:

MTUP:
-individual threads for each character-specific match-up
-an OP with links to each thread
-an updated 1st post with info on the match-ups

Spoiler:
-one thread that contains all character info with each match-up (just as the MTUP) one click away
-match-up discussion happens in the same thread
-an updated 1st post with info on the match-ups

*the only other significant difference is our language, current match-up knowledge, and organization habits

What is so crucial about match-ups that there needs to be an entirely separate thread for one character? We have punishes. Period. We have spacing to respect given their normals. Period. We have risk/reward. Period. It is not as massive a project as u seem to think, but I respect your initiative and want for such deep discussion. Don’t think at all that Spoilers would discourage that. Not at all. We would all be together.

Well, let’s see:

-As I have already stated, basic format is the huge decisive here. It is a matter of taste
-Having the character match-ups in the same thread could lead readers to spot something about a certain match-up that they would have otherwise overlooked (e.g., who looks up info on how to punish Dan and how Dan punishes Fei?)
-Allowing newer posts in the Fei forums the space of the first page vs having 20+ threads on the 1st page all dedicated to match-ups
-Someone visits the Fei threads and wants to see what is the hot topic of discussion. would they rather click through 20+ threads and risk 20+ threads being inactive, or would they rather all meet up in the same spot where we gather to pool info and ideas?

:coffee:


#12

Gotcha, gotcha. Well that relieves some fears, though I do still have some concerns. This is the way I see it:

MTUP
Pros:
[LIST=1]
[]Character specific discussion, so you don’t have to read nonsense about others when looking for specific info
[
]Greater attention to each match-up as there will be a discussion for each one (Dan, Rose, etc. will not be eclipsed by Blanka/Zangief). This means that more posters will contribute to the Rose forum when they see that it’s empty.
[*]Less likely that a post/question will be skipped as the conversations will be more contained and less jumpy. For example, a large discussion about Dictator is going on and you ask a crucial question about Fei v Fei–the question gets skipped over since no one wants to talk about that now. With MTUP, the topic speed is reduced, making it less likely that someone’s question will be passed over.
[/LIST]

Cons:
[list=1]
[]Forum clutter with all these match-up topics
[
]Not everyone will visit each character match-up forum and participate in all discussions; some posters only pop up to make quality posts once in awhile. This may mean that a highly knowledgeable poster will look through the Blanka topic, but forget to check the Dictator topic due to time constraints, leaving some imbalances in contribution.
[*]A general Fei tactic posted in one MTUP will not reach audiences of the other MTUP topics (i.e. mix-ups, combos, set-ups, etc.)
[/list]

Spoiler
Pros:
[LIST=1]
[]Guides all contained in one topic saves a ton of forum space
[
]Combining discussions increases cohesiveness within the forum (vs. Con #2 for MTUP)
[*]General knowledge will be more easily shared as well
[/LIST]

Cons:
[list=1]
[]Mixed discussions will make it harder to find all of the info that is posted for updating the OP (maybe 2 posts on Rose here, then a mass of posts on Zangief there, followed by 3 posts on Fei mirrors, and then 10 posts on Akuma). This is up to the TC to decide whether it is too messy or not though
[
]Topic speed is increased. If the someone takes a 2 day break, they’ll come back to find that there are 3 new pages of info and a ton more contributions to read/consider. And with the way re-asking a question is shunned, this will be a requisite for all people coming back from an SRK-vacation, before they are allowed to post again (“read the topic you n00b!!!” will be heard so many times…).
[]Along with topic speed, we’ll find more “lost” posts since there’s no dedicated space for the minor match-ups like Fei v Dan or Fei v Rose. A new, more interesting subject may arise before a match-up is fully fleshed out, leaving some on a cliff hanger.
[
]With point #3 above, it’s harder to direct a discussion with different passions colliding; if someone wants to REALLY talk about Ryu, and another person wants to REALLY talk about Gen, we have people butting heads and competing for talk time. To alleviate that, people will start using the quote feature more, making posts longer than necessary and harder to sift through.
[/list]

My inclination is obviously towards MTUP, but not without the alterations I mentioned in my previous post. With spoilers we’re running across similar problems to the original set-up with reliance on the TC to keep everything up to date. With MTUP, we’re isolating discussions and segregating the community by their preference for discussion. There are some serious problems with both lol.

I think overall, it’s a matter of which style will fully flesh out each character match-up first, with all of their problems hindering them. If judge_rl can keep up with the clutter and the noise, Spoilers may be the way to go. On the other hand, if organization (with a bit of segregation) makes it easier to complete each match-up, it’s Starnab’s game.

My vote’s already been submitted, so I guess we’ll see.


#13

Fair enough. Another sorta big factor for MTUP is that ppl are already getting used to it even while this poll is open. I was leaving the Spoiler thread alone during these 2 days to not let activity be a contest, but MTUP seems to be up and running. Anyhow, the poll is almost over and then all can be submitted towards discussion.


#14

I suggest that somebody update a single matchup page with spoilers, using the hard data from the individual threads :stuck_out_tongue:


#15

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA This was a good laugh. Dullyanna, if I didn’t know any better I would say you had a hand in this! J/K J/K :slight_smile:

10 - 10 ?!?

MTUP & Spoiler are tied people. I didn’t quite expect that as MTUP was leading the entire poll, but in any case it still leaves the current situation at a neutral. It seems the voters as a whole would like to see a blend of both:

-individual MTUP threads for dedicated and isolated discussion
-Spoilers on a main page for quick & clean ‘Cliffnotes’ type of reference

I can work with that. Starnab, you are the man for the details and deep. I, on the other hand, will create a Match-Up & Strat Cliffnotes thread.

Poll closed. The voters have spoken. Thnx guys for your opinions and participating in this. The ultimate goal was to better organize this aspect of the Fei threads and you have definitely made your point. :lovin:

The decision:

Spoilers will serve as the basis of the main page. The character name will serve as a link to the individual MTUP thread for further discussion. The info under the character’s Spoiler will be the meat of the match-up. The must-knows without a shadow of a doubt in order to take on said character with a higher chance of winning.