[MTUP] Sagat

Specific thread for our beloved one-highed tiger.

:04 he threw a bad ts, good crumple. you have him pretty much near the corner and do cl s. fierce xx fierce rekkas; use c.s.fierce xx rh shien; OR, since it is early in the match, and he has no fadc, go for a Tenshin reset

after the knockdown, he does quickrise and you go for the x-up j.mk (it looked as if you did it too early), land and do s.mp…but now you’re in the corner with no reward because he blocked it…try not to corner yourself on obvious cross-ups so early in the match…use same side j.mp/fp since Sagat is so tall and, if blocked, land throw or throw bait, or land and low short or etc into combo on-hit

:10 you land low jab xx rekka after the blocked c.s.mp and stop on the 1st rekka; this would have been a good time to continue to your 2nd rekka into a tenshin reset (now with EX for the extra 2frames) and put him BACK in the corner

  • you do a poorly spaced f+MK not too long after dropping your hit-confirm…it is poorly spaced because this is not a hard reaction range to just TU you, s.HK you, or even focus you

  • be more careful on your focus use; Sagat could have easily done s.lk xx TS or TK to counter you at that range (and both are safe at this point for him anyway), but Cajun left his s.lk empty

-you force him to block a lvl2 and dash up in front of him and…do nothing. you must have guessed TU, but left yourself open to possibly getting thrown fullscreen; if you want to play it safe AND still get your momentum back in the case he did not choose to reversal you, backdash and get back in on the rekka/f+mk in reaction to whiff or block, or use your RH CW w/o backdash to counter reversal/throw/backdash/jump-away (will look at what happens when you do a RH CW point blank vs a TU tho i know you will not get hit, but the ? is, where will you land or will you hit him)

:21 you land ANOTHER crumple. not bad for this early in the match. you decide to do c.s.fierce xx fierce rekkas again; take a look at your meter: 2bars. you had the option of doing a more damaging combo:

c.s.strong xx ex cw xx c.s.fierce xx rekka, rekka > tenshin or backdash/block to bait TU since he is so close to having fadc

after knockdown, you dash up and straight up Shien him into fadc CW; maybe not the best idea…if you guessed reversal here, block/backdash would have been fine or possibly even RH CW in itself; but he could have easily backdashed your Shien and made you pay for it with TU xx fadc xx Ultra

anyway, after you land the shien into cw, you do a horrible job at oki and simply neutral jump in front of him which could have netted him a free jab TU > TK. he decides to hit you air-2-air, dash under…and you shien him on landing possibly trying to get 2nd dp and it works since he seemingly tried to meaty low short. afterwards, you get no kind of oki after the knockdown, and simply dash into a TU

ok, it looks like RH CW is a good DEFENSIVE option when guessing TU since you land away from him and it looks like he recovers in time to avoid a rekka punish (it looks like you couldn’t get him to block a rekka at all outside of dash up from this range)

You have a massive health lead and he is near death, so Roski appears to just want to keep his meter for the next round at this point.You pressure him with Rekkas for the kill (which could have been a TU lmao since he was balls to the wall).

2 crumples, 2 good Shien guesses (1 really since your 1st was fadc) = round 1

more later…

Actually you’re right, I should start back dashing when i guess tiger upper but I feel like it still might hit me if I’m right in his face when I backdash.

Some players like to wait and see if you do anything, then use the uppercut though so I’m worried if I backdash right away a late tiger upper will catch you. One thing I’ve learned is that doing everything right at the moment when it’s first available is sometimes predictable. Simply waiting completely resets the situation to neutral and makes you harder to read. Was trying to show him that I wasn’t scared to bait it so future oki attempts could possibly be safer on my part.

But yeah, after watching that I do need to make better use of my oki and I could get a lot more mixups off of blocked focus attacks. I was really paranoid about tiger upper in this matchup, namely because if you notice when I lost, it was to an upper almost every time, so I was being extra cautious of them and trying to feel him out early in the match.

Good critique though. I think when I get the life lead I really need to just resolve myself to NO RISKS at that point and back off. Jumping a few tiger shots at range and waiting for him to come to me won’t kill me.

Yeah, a delayed TU (or a poorly timed backdash) can hit backdash since the invinc frames are pretty much on start-up. You do have to choose when to use what (hence, why I noted backdash/RH CW/block).

I don’t think Fei sits on life lead too well vs characters with better than average projectiles. It really depends on how much of a life lead you have actually. Thing is, once you get that much of a lead, you generally just want to end it. Reason being, some projectile characters are pretty dangerous if they get to build stock for EX and/or FADC/Super (ESPECIALLY if they have Ultra as well).

Take Sakura for example. I could almost care less if she is throwing fbs at me when I get life lead (especially if I am not matching those fbs since I don’t have to worry about EX Otoshi). Ryu/Akuma/Sagat/Gouken/Sim on the other hand, I am not too sure about.

yeah, the biggest problem I saw was that you dashed at the worst times.

Well any character that doesn’t have some ridiculous reversal, I’d say hurry up and end the match but if you’re resolved just to dodge fireballs, it’s not like it’s hard. And Sagat probably isn’t so great at approaching so…eventually he has to or you get a time out.

Ryu, yeah, I can see not wanting him to get meter. Akuma, nah, I’d say keep pressuring him. Gouken’s not much of a threat, and Sim, I dunno. Never thought about him as a meter character really. Winning vs him needs you to be on top of his ass anyway but I guess you don’t need to take any risks getting in if you have the life lead there. Guess it all depends on the matchup.

Alright I give up. Sagat matchup is impossible to win consistently at high levels. I’ma learn Akuma for this shit.

If I had my say, I think it’s about 7-3 in Sagat’s favor. Tiger Knee and the damage output just completely skew it in Sagat’s favor. There is no effective range for Fei.

Same goes for most characters I believe.

long range - tiger shots
mid range - tiger knees, which beats everything you’ve got, and good sagats know how to minimize the chance of getting punished just like we use rekkas. If that damn thing doesn’t break armor, you can still fa it. You can’t even fa his s.hk because it hits twice for no good reasons.
short range (if you manage to get in) - I’d say FeiLong has better options. But one careless mistake can cost you 60% of your hp, and you have to work hard to get back in again.

Jump in - dp, s.hk. make your pick. Either way, you’re fucked.

you can only use ex cw so many times and it can be punished hard with the uppercut combo if he saw that coming.

It’s like fighting Zangief, you have to play perfect to stand a chance. You just don’t have to deal with the wake up game shits. But instead, you get tiger shots and the dp combo.

I don’t think the match-up is that bad. Indeed it’s bad because this is Sagat we’re talking about but you have some options on your side.

cr.Fierce beats both TK on startup and st.HK. So if your opponent spam one of those, just counter spam. He’ll think twice before throwing random shit.

cr.MK goes right under TK. Most Sagat players does not expect that so you can go for a free throw afterwards. You have to anticipate it a tiny bit since it’s quite hard to do on reaction.

A video of me against one of my sparring partner who knows me quite well : http://fr.justin.tv/clip/76250677661da316

I think I’ve read about the cr.hp in this forum for tiger knees and s.hk. But good sagats adapt quickly and switch to fa instead, making me think twice using cr.hp. Both FeiLong’s cr.hp and f.mk are huge fa baits.

I’ll try out cr.mk to bait tiger knee next time. Thanks for the advice.

And your reaction is much better than mine too. lol

cr.MK isn’t really that great since you can’t do it on reaction, not to mention a lot of the time he’ll tiger uppercut right after if you try anything to punish.

Seriously though add EmblemLord on PSN and play him, I think you’ll see what I’m talking about. cr.HP is ok but it got beat out by the initial part of tiger knee for me quite a bit. st.HK is pretty slow and huge so it’s tiger uppercut bait. It’s decent but if he started tiger knee before you started the st.HK, you’re gonna get beat. All the options in beating tiger knee involve doing a move before it goes active.

Also why does tiger knee hit up to Sagat’s head and beat out every aerial? That shit is stupid. I think he also punished rekkas on what’s usually a safe distance for me from me usually on block with Tiger Uppercut. If that’s something that can happen all the time this matchup is probably fei’s worst.

This is one of Fei’s worst fights (I still have more trouble with Boxer than I do Sagat personally), Sagat has better footsies, better range, better everything. Sagat’s zone includes Fei’s. The only way i can eke out wins in this match is the same way I eke out wins vs. Sagat with any character. Jump smart, move smart then throw like crazy playing oki mind games. I don’t even touch chicken wing or rekka. It’s either cr. lk, cr. hp, cr. hk, FK (to train the other guy to want to reaction TU).

Yeah this match sucks. Sagat can actually out footsie Fei because his st.mk beats damn near everything Fei has on the ground when spaced right.

Sagat can punish any blocked Rekka. First hit can be punished with low jab xx TU and any other blocked hit is free TU. I think if you space the first hit PERFECTLY he MIGHT not be able to punish.

CW is just asking for the rape. I ultraed Villianous on reaction several times and TUed him on reaction more times then I can count.

On wake-up Fei isn’t screwed since he has Flame Kick but don’t CW on wake-up. Sagat can just duck it then sweep, TU or Kara TU to punish and you are back on the ground.

I think the final score was something like 28-9 my favor? I can’t remember exactly coulda been more, coulda been less.

At first I thought this was 6/4 Sagat’s favor but when I discovered mid match that I could punish second blocked hit of Rekka I said out loud to myself " This match is fucked!!!"

Edit: Just tested it. First hit of Rekka is safe when PERFECTLY spaced. Second hit is never safe. Even if Sagat can’t TU you he can just st.lk xx high tiger shot

Thanks for testing it out and confirming how much more shitty Fei is lol!!!

Yeah I was trying to Chicken Wing to counter throws and overheads on wake up but if you just sat there and blocked I’d go over you, which is usually safe-ish at point blank but sagat’s cr.HK reaches all the way to punish it. And yeah you could definitely throw tiger shots and if I reacted too late, just Tiger Upper me out of Chicken Wing. I had to pretty much pre-emptively EX CW to hope to hit you out of fireball start up and if you were doing tiger knee or just waiting to upper, I was fucked.

I can’t fight you at mid range because tiger knee and slightly closer, Sagat’s pokes dominate there. Rekka isn’t too good because the knee beats it out. In close Fei can fight but once Sagat gets Fei to block a hit he can run tiger knee pressure all day and then there’s the risk of tiger uppers, so there’s really no safe place for Fei to fight this.

And now that you’ve proven how unsafe rekkas are vs him, I seriously don’t think this is winnable on any regular basis by Fei.

Doesn’t feel like any other matchups are quite this bad for fei but maybe I need to fight some Daigo level ryus or something.

It’s real hard to do cr.mk on reaction against tiger knee of course. But I guess it’s ok to do it from a distance, not real close. Somewhere he can’t fa it, or maybe dp it. It’s only good for those who likes spamming tiger knees anyway.

And I’ve tried it yesterday and it proves to be quite effective. After I throwed him twice, he started to tech. Does that mean he actually has time to upper me?
If so, could I fa it, or the upper will count as a reversal and break glass?

I think it would count as a reversal. Pretty sure using cr.MK to go under it doesn 't really leave you at any advantage…I’d just try to flame kick it. Great thing about flame kick is if you time it wrong you just block, since you never have to leave the back direction to do it.

Man I’ve been training the everliving shit out of this matchup and I still can’t win consistently vs top Sagats. I can win SOME but I want to know I can rely on my Fei vs Sagat in tournaments. I’m seriously not worried about any other character but I have no idea what to do about this matchup. It’s just like the damage output is too much in Sagat’s favor, I feel like I’m just getting owned by statistics.

Has ANYONE figured it out yet?

I haven’t really played top vevel sagat and I still can’t win consistantly. I have no clue how to attack most of the time. One mistake will cost me at least 30% of my life. That’s a lot of pressure.

Top level Sagats make it so even wrong guesses cost you that much, even if you play perfectly. It’s so frustrating. Plus Fei can’t kill him quick so any point past like 60% health when he has 2 meters is terrifying because every time you go on the offense, you risk losing all your health. I think this matchup would be much easier if Fei gets some damage buffs / combo into ultra.

Also I’m finding chicken wing completely useless in this match. Can’t use EX to react to tiger shots because he can recover and uppercut you on reaction. You can do it in anticipation but you guess wrong he can react again and just uppercut you. So there’s really no use for it in this matchup.

Focusing through tiger shots and dashing is risky too because he can just hit you after you dash. There’s really not any way to get in on him thats not a blind guess except slow walk up / block till you’re in his face and if you eat a knee or a throw it’s back to square one again.