MvC2: Blackheart Players Unite!

i’m not playing him wrong. i actually know the perfect way to play him against every character but there is just so much he has. if you think about it BH’s arsenal is nothing compared to cable and sentinel. if you take a look around the dominant teams need cable or sentinel on them. MSP is the only highly succesful team without the gun or the robot. i’m not saying hes bad just that hes not as good as he was. nobody is finding out anything new with him and i’m predicting he wont be toptier by next summer.

LightningStorm: That’s a very interesting counter strategy. Unfortunately, stuff like that stops working when your opponent mashes to get up faster after FS. I’ve never seen them mash fast enough to get up and actually hit BH out of the forced dash, but it’s usually enough to force BH to block when he comes out.

ej333: Actually, your team has a really good countercall for Psylocke. A-Mags will hit assists AND the damage on Psylocke really adds up after not too long. Players that replace their ground game with Psylocke are asking to get hammered, so just practice your blocking skills and countercall Psy on sight and you’ll do good. Mags/BH has an unmashable tempest combo. I forget what it was, but master ken might know.

master ken: About corner trapping… BH/Doom does that INSANELY well. Dropping Doom, jump fiercing, then jump forward short short, land short short is a great pattern that covers most of Doom’s exit, and the next guessing situation is almost entirely in your favor. If you guess right and make them block, they have to eat more chip damage.

Nemesis00: Blackheart stalemates Cable. That doesn’t mean he wins. Getting in effectively on Cable, even with Doom assist, takes a lot of guessing (as per, should I jump or super jump) even if you can bait out the assist well. Fortunately, most Cables just mash on their AAA when you get near, so you can just get close, airdash (AAA misses), then drop Doom on Cable’s head. The pattern I stated above covers Doom’s exit well (although I wouldn’t rely on it - I’d just keep Cable in blockstun between the first and second wave and then superjump out).

LazyJ: I understand where you’re coming from. I think the problem most BH players have is that they have the wrong idea. Either they play to win, which BH really can’t do unless the opponent lets him, or they indiscriminately call assists. BH has to play to not lose, and that means conserving his assists. As far as how he does against top 3, they have lots of options but BH can actually win on most competition because most opponents only take a few of those options. It’s just a matter of being confident.

(to be continued)

HOw I Play BH:

Strats: Build 4 meters, then counter->super for the kill. I like to keep it simple. Punish badly timed assists is good, too. But people who can’t stop rushing let you do all sorts of stupid stuff…:smiley:

I do a lot of things that aren’t really safe against aggressive opponents, but due to the fact that I never do the same thing twice in a row, I almost always get away with it. This gets around the “limited options” problem that Blackheart seems to suffer from. I’ll just share some of this stuff.
c.hp + Y-Sent XX jab Inferno.
jumpback HP XX airdash back + Y-Sent, land, c.HP, jump LP.
B-Doom, SJ.LP XX airdash forward HP (do demons during dash, not after), land jumpback HK.
Jump straight up LP, jump straight up LP, jump straight up LP…call assist when they start moving forward & dash back.
Call assist and ground dash forward when opponent in air.
Y-Sent, hp Dark Thunder.
SJ and mash LP, airdash HP when opponent comes near BH(HP during airdash, not after).
Most of this stuff leaves Blackheart in a position to do a ground Judgment Day if the opponent’s assist decides to show up. Follow with a DHC to HSF/Hailstorm whatever and kill assists if you’ve got the meter. This chaotic sort of play does really well against aggressive opponents. A few things of note:
c.HP demons are the only ground demons that don’t dissappear when you cancel to special/super. :smiley:
I use j.LP almost exclusively for jumpins, since the priority is better than LK against airborne opponents, and the same against ground opponents. You can MK after it if it connects, and if blocked, just throw at landing. Perfectly timed tick-throw. Random j.LP is also frustrating to players who are hellbent on rushing.

People who are smart enough to sit back and play longrange games (and Cable players), force me into a more sedate game of just picking my openings to pull safe moves out til I earn meters. Not so fun, but Blackheart can stalemate most anybody, then I stand still, they attack, and I counter->super their life away. SJ HP/HK and airdash before it even comes out (before peak of SJ) is an exceptionally safe way of building meter. Once their assist comes out, I’ll move a little toward them, and if I can get them to the corner, I can do some full SJs, and wait for assist, then Air Judgment Day DHC whatever.

-DFA

That’s not a bad strategy, but I hate relying on counter -> super. I need to be really sneaky about it for it to work. It has to be a trump card. Most people get really obvious about when they want to counter -> super, and just get tossed around like their name was bacon. (Inside joke that’s not really funny.)

Yeah. I do a lot of technically unsafe things too. The trick is to know where your opponent expects you to be and to not be there. Something as simple as jump forward fierce then airdash back can work wonders.

I’ll analyze your stuff.

c.hp + Y-Sent XX jab Inferno. - I was about to say this doesn’t work, but then I saw below.

**jumpback HP XX airdash back + Y-Sent, land, c.HP, jump LP.**That looks really spastic. :lol: What’s your goal here?

B-Doom, SJ.LP XX airdash forward HP (do demons during dash, not after), land jumpback HK. - If you’re going to use Doom, it’s just best to do the lockdown pattern I described in an earlier post. You want to give the opponent no holes to escape chip damage, and to cover most of Doom’s escape. Just IMO.

Jump straight up LP, jump straight up LP, jump straight up LP…call assist when they start moving forward & dash back. - Hahahaha, ghetto… too good.

Call assist and ground dash forward when opponent in air. - Ground dash is underused weapon. I’ll get into it more in a future post.

Y-Sent, hp Dark Thunder. - Fierce DT strikes me as unnecessary since drones are already there. Why not jab DT?

SJ and mash LP, airdash HP when opponent comes near BH(HP during airdash, not after). - The coasting airdash? Pretty nice, but it might be your ass. I wouldn’t do this on the big 3. Or Spiral. Or Cyclops. Actually, it’s not really good if your opponent catches on. Good at first though.

Wow, you learn something new every day! Actually, I did find that out about C.Fierce a long time ago, but I filed it away in the “useless BH trivia” part of my mind and forgot about it. Its use in some of your patterns is pretty sharp.

Jump jab as a jump-in can be launched. I wouldn’t do it if the opponent is staying on the ground. But jump jab is a great weapon.

Baiting out assists is half the battle. If you bait out Cable’s AAA, you can start attempting to attack Cable and bring in your own assist. You have to be careful how you do it, though, because a lot of times your assist will appear next to Cable’s assist instead of Cable. Above all, you have to be really good at guessing, so you don’t get pinned by grenades and viper beams. Not a greatly interesting match.

I kind of think psylocke and cyclops are good at setting up combos, so i kinda wanna know ways to use psylocke or cyclop’s aaa with blackheart.

Also is there way to use psylocke: main, blackheart: aaa (anti-air). Like, superjump qcf + lk + blackheart assist is the only thing i know of.

IMO Psylocke is bad with BH. She doesn’t cover enough ground and doesn’t keep the opponent blocking long enough. Just about the only thing she has good is an easy ass damage combo (shorts plus Psylocke, inferno into armageddon) but that’s fool’s gold. Psylocke is a Magneto-only assist.

Cyclops is so much better. Monster damage off any low short on ANYONE plus reset opportunities AND a great covering assist to boot. I’ll write more about that later, but it’s hella good.

BH’s assist keeps people from jumping to escape. Psylocke already offers reason enough to not jump in on her (short psiblade is totally safe) but you can use BH in combination with rushdown s.fierce xx psi-flash patterns. There might actually be hope for a Psylocke/BH team, but the team has to be Psylocke-based, not BH, IMO.

It starts out looking like your everyday BH pattern, then it starts looking like a gaping hole in his defense. Everybody attacks and gets tagged with the LP, follow with MK, the opponent bounces back to fullscreen in the air, match resets in your favor. Frustrate them into keep coming back.

I’m fishing for an assist at fullscreen. HP keeps them from SJing out. I could use Inferno, I suppose, but I like the way people see a DT starting and immediately SJ right INTO the lightning.

Mag,Storm,Sent,Strider,Doom can all launch LK anyway, and Cables like to jump out or dash under. LP catches anybody jumping out, as a potential guardbreak. And tic-throw is a nice bonus. I use LK on short characters, though.

Good advice. Thanks for the response. Look forward to the post on using ground dash.

-DFA

cyclops aaa is really good for black heart. I think it is the anti air that leaves him with the most options. off of any clk you get the option of either infinite, super, air combo, tag out or snap back. His sjhk airdash sjhk infinite is ok, but it builds your opponents meter faster than it will build yours. Most the time it is better to do it for a few reps and either launch and air combo, snap back, s.hk tag out, or just jump up and judgment day.

on another note, does anyone know how to use black heart effectively with cable’s projectile assist? I have recently switched to using this one and don’t ahve any good strats yet.

i think psylocke is the last assist BH should be using. i used to use BH sentinel tron and i was really successful with it but i didnt realize that by putting sentinel on rocketpunch assist i added room for another toptier character. BH sentinel works together just as well as sentinel BH. so in my opinion BH sentinel-A is the ideal BH team because you can switch around the order and still have a deadly team. i tried mags BH cyc and that worked pretty well but i now i use mags BH sentinel just because they work so well together. all 3 of them. magneto can jump around with fierces while calling BH assist and rushdown with it. mags can also use sentinel -A like rowtron and sent mags-a is great and so is BH mags-A. if you know how to play as BH you can really hurt people with that team. or you can put in cable - b for mags or sent. BH is really good with cable too. after a short+cable, short, infernoxxHOD. the opponent either gets sucked into only the inferno and fall straight down into the HOD or they keep going up till they go off the screen and for some reason a glitch happens where its not possible to block the last part of the HOD because you were so high. you can also use cable assist to set up the BH infinite. it works if you superjump cancel out of the medium kicks. i think since BH is really weak against certain characters you cant afford to have nontoptier assists incase BH dies fast.

I use BH. My favorite assist for him is Cyke.

It cover half of the screen and it is invincible at startup, which is a big help to BH as thats the area he has the most trouble in, up close and personal.

It also sets up his infinite, which is good for DHCs and air judgement day combos which are safe against Cable.

At the start of the matchup, I like to jump toward my opponent with j. lp and cykes AAA and then work my way from there.

Also, IMO, Spiral/Sent/BH is the best Spiral team as BHs AAA makes Spiral so much better.

DeathFromAbove: Good points, but … guardbreak with what precisely? BH can guardbreak, sure, but unless he’s in the corner or in point blank range, he can’t make it count. Also, good point about fierce DT. Now that I think about it, you could actually do Y-Sent, fierce dark thunder xx HOD and if you do it right that could actually be safe Cable chip. The trick would be, get them to block dark thunder, then drones, then HOD.

brutal_prog: BH/Cyclops gets good damage and pins almost by itself. Personally, I think the best combo for BH/Cyke is shorts plus Cyke, SJ.RH, dashback RH, then get close and inferno xx arma. Alternately, you can go for a reset by letting them land from the reset then doing shorts plus Cyke again (works if you time it right). Don’t do the infinite for too long. It doesn’t really do enough sustained damage to be worth it.

LazyJ: I like that post, you made a great case for A-Sentinel. I’ve maintained that Y-Sent is better for BH. I still believe that in most relevant fights it is, but you’ve given me something to think about. When it comes to BH, A-Sent acts as a welfare Commando, punishing assists and being used in the BH combo. One fight where I’d take A-Sent over Y-Sent for sure, though, is on Cable. A-Sent offers a no-thought assist punishment while you superjump, and gives you a Cable-safe combo (shorts with A-Sent, optional inferno, armageddon). I just have the same problem with A-Sent as I do with Commando. While he’s out, you can’t really attack safely, and have to guess.

Ouroborus: BH actually doesn’t have problems with snuffing attacks up close, his problem is he doesn’t do a lot of damage per hit without assists. Cyclops is good because it keeps the opponent blocking and allows BH his choice to either runaway or move in on the opponent again (ie. the rushdown style of BH that was once popular in the EC). Cyke also sets up Armageddon well, which is good if you mash well because it does TONS of damage AND gets BH close to the opponent again. And yeah, Spiral/BH is pretty damn good as well.

Blackheart Secret Weapons I: Mobility

BH is one of two characters in the game without a standard dash (the other being Zangief). Sure, he has an airdash, but without a wavedash or a way to move in quick for a combo on the ground, BH is disadvantaged in a lot of situations. This much is true. But you can use the tools he DOES have to your advantage as well.

Keep in mind I’m still experimenting with all of these. Stuff you have to add is duly appreciated.

Part One - Ground Dash
I consider BH’s ground dash to be a special move. He sinks into the ground and pops back up either halfscreen or short of fullscreen either in front or behind. Sounds complicated? I’ll break it down for you:
Ground Dash Forward (short): Tap forward twice
Ground Dash Forward (long): Tap forward once, then hold forward
Ground Dash Back (short): Tap back twice
Ground Dash Back (long): Tap back once, then hold back

With that out of the way, if you’re going to use ground dash, first know that BH is vulnerable both at the beginning and the end of the dash. That means if you’re going to use his dash on a grounded opponent, you have to cover it with an assist. Y-Sentinel is the best assist for this purpose, but B-Doom works as well as any beam assist that lasts for a respectable amount of time (A-Cable, A-IM), albeit not as well.

What’s the ground dash good for? It’s of limited use because of its vulnerable time at the beginning (without it, that dash would be SO much better). But you can use it where you would use the wavedash to get beneath an opponent when they superjump. You can also break some silly traps with it if you notice the opponent is playing automatic. However, a covered ground dash can be REALLY great on Cable. Call projectile assist then dash through Cable. If he doesn’t zap you by the time you enter the ground, then he won’t be able to zap you, period, and you’re free to attack him for awhile.

You can get really creative with the ground dash if you know how it works. With Y-Sentinel, the dash can be really good, but as I said, it can work with other assists too. It’s a new toy that I’m still playing with. I’ll report my progress :slight_smile:

Part Two - Coasting Dash
If you cancel BH’s airdash with an attack almost as soon as you do it, BH coasts for awhile, which can be useful to bait out attacks or to stay in the air longer. It’s the same idea as Magneto and Storm, but you can combine this with demons to make yourself a really hard-to-hit target. Stuff like sj.fierce, dashback (or forward!) jab can get really annoying. You can also do this with a airdash close to the floor, making it a kinda-sorta wavedash.

Part Three - Saving Your Airdash
It’s usually better to not airdash in a superjump unless you have to. Saving your airdash allows you to get considerably more damage off of an air-to-air hit. BH’s jabs and shorts do as much damage as most character’s strongs and forwards, so a simple jab short, dash, jab short strong can do a lot of damage. Also, if the opponent blocks the jab, you can dash forward and throw them. Great on Cable, among others, and they seldom see it coming.

jump upforward lp,lk if you want them far away, or lp,lp XX airdash (crossup) lp if you wanna stay close. Or switchout. :slight_smile: For positioning more than damage. Not a match strategy, since it always runs the risk of getting hit with an assist, but a nice pickup, and worth the risk if you’re losing, particularly the switchout. BH has a really hard time overcoming deficits, IMO. Maybe you can make a post on “fighting from behind.”

Oh, and I’m pretty sure that’s not safe chip on Cable. The whole point of DT is that I want them to be able to react to it, which is BAAAAD when it’s Cable, especially with my assist out. :eek:

-DFA

When your opponent is in the corner, always remember to trap that !!

how the hell does BH attack sentinel? sentinel’s super armor eats my shorts whenever i land on him, and he just launches me during mid short! should i just be stalling Sentinel, not really attacking him?

right now, when i play BH vs Sentinel, i just superjump, throw FP demons, airdash back, then do nothing, hoping that Sentinel runs into my FP demons. i’ll also try to jab him if i ever get close to him at superjump height.

i really dont see the need for sent - Y ever really. the only thing i find sent-Y useful for with BH is stopping trijumps but BH shouldnt need help avoiding those. he can cover himself so well with Fierces shorts and delayed airdashing(airdashing at the end of your SJ to leave the gap open) that a magneto shouldnt be able to be close to you without blocking. i think youre right about not being able to attack safely and that sent-Y covers his own body but it just doesnt cut it for me. if i cant take a chunk of life off the opponent when i want then the character isnt even worth playing. sent -Y is ok when you have another AAA but shorts with RP assist infernoxxsuper is too damaging to consider trading in for something else. but most people use BH with a “realAAA”(i consider real AAAs the ones where they are never meant to see the fight from point like capcom and cyke) because then you have a better way to deal damage and sent-Y would add more variety to the team but as i said before with BH teams i think you need point men incase BH gets killed fast which does happen a lot. ill give you a situation for this. if you start BH mags sent-A vs mags cable psylock and you do inferno HOD mags counters in cable to take the last hit giving him a guaranteed AHVB on BH. BH is dead and now you have mags sent-a. or you could have picked sent-y cyclops. i dont see the cyclops assist doing so much better than sent-A that you could trade him in as a point character and still have the advantage of damage done to the opponent while having no magneto to deal further damage. what i said is kinda confusing but i’m sure you get what imean.

Blackheart is the main player in my team…

Blackheart(b), Gouki/Akuma(b), Ironman(a)

They may not seem like much… but I got a OCV with them, before a tourney… :smiley:

And Gouki/Akuma took a team out by himself, because he was left to die. You know… I’ve done this twice now. And both times, before a tourney. This time it was Cable, Sent., Mag, all at 50% life… maybe more. The other was Cable, and Cyc. At about 50%, and 80%. It’s quite funny, to see people’s reaction on his speed, when he dashes. And that’s how I won… :evil:… all of a sudden, Dash, c.LK, c.HP, sj.LP, LP, Hurricane Kick(2hits), Tenma Gou Zankuu… 50% went to 5%.

Anyways… what I do is… sj.HK, and not air dash out of it. And the most amazing part is… NO ONE DOES THIS. Or atleast I’ve never seen anyone do this. They always use him, Blackheart, to build meters. sj.HK, AD/B, HK… :bluu:… they don’t even see his true power. Anyways… if you fall with the minions/demons/goblins… whatever… you will land in the back of your opponent. And half of the time… more like 75% of the time. Your opponent will still be blocking, giving you a chance to do: s.LK, s.HK, Ironman Assist, sj.HK, repeat… or whatever you like.

Anyways… if they opponent gets caught by the sj.HK, you can land s.LK, s.HK, Ironman Assist, HOD/Judgement Day… patent pending, patent pending… and you know what. THEY CAN’T MASH OUT OF IT!. It’s funny to see people try to mash it, then screen freezes, and they notice that they are getting hit by one of the slowest Hyper Combo(Judgement Day,) in the world. Though it’s not a guarantee… as Judgement Day varies. But HOD is a 100% thing. Never missed… or atleast I never missed.

Gouki/Akuma is there for DHC, Counter+Super, and knocking away any pesky bugs. Though he may not seem like a good assest. You have to see him in play, before you say anything.

And Ironman… well… he doesn’t need an explaination.

Blackheart is too slow, do any of you know at least like an air combo for his ass? Ive played with him a couple of times but he really sucks for combos. :slight_smile:

You want an air combo eh?

Jump-In LK, MK, OC.Launch, LP, LK, MP, Air Dash forward, LP, LK, MP*, Throw

*This MP only hits in the corner.

Whoa! It’s the old MSF scrubber pattern. Never thought I’d see that again.