My Teir List: How can this change?



A+: Fei Long, Cammy
A: Seth, Viper, Adon, Rufus, Akuma
B+: Sagat, Ibuki
B: Abel, Blanka, Vega, Balrog, Chun-Li, Ken, Ryu
C+ Juri, E.Honda, Guy, M.Bison, Sakura, Guile, Zangeif, Makoto
C: Yun, Cody, Dhalsim, Rose, Yang
D+: Oni, Gouken, El Furte, DJ, Gen
D: Evil Ryu
E: T.Hawk, Dudely, Hakan,
F: Dan

Since some people asked I decided to put it up


There are some crazy Dans, personally I’d remove F and merge him into the E. I haven’t really thought of my own list…hmm.




I before E except after C.


Dan is above T. Hawk, true story.


Dan has way more tools than Hawk and I think he’s better too. Now that I really think about it I think Hawk truly is the worst character in the game.


Hawk is without a doubt the worst character in the game and definitely below Dan. I can explain why and I’m gonna use the Eventhubs SSF4 Community Matchup Chart (Which I think is extremely accurate) as well as a Matchup Chart of my own to do so -

Adding up all the points from the Eventhubs Matchup Chart for Hawk and Dan, we can clearly see that Dan is considered the less viable character because he has lower points (148) then Hawk (166). However, this system is flawed simply because having more bad matchups does not nescessarily mean that a character is less viable compared to another. You also have to consider exactly how bad those matchups are and I will explain that with the made-up Matchup Chart for Hawk and Dan I created below -

( I know I left out one character, but you’ll get the idea)

As you can see, Hawk has 11 matchups that are 8 - 2 in his favor, 8 matchups that are even and 19 matchups that are 8 - 2 in his opponents favor with a total point score of 169 (Not 166 like the picture suggests, sorry). Dan has 37 bad matchups that are 4 - 6 in his opponent’s favor and one matchup that is even (himself) adding up to a score of 157. Hawk obviously has more points then Dan still, but take a close look at this chart and think about this question carefully. Who do you believe is the overall more viable character? It’s Dan, and why? Because DAN HAS MORE CONSISTENCY IN VIABILITY.

A 4 - 6 matchup is a matchup where a character is undoubtably disadvantaged to a significant extent but it is not even by a large amount. The disadvantaged character can still be very threatening as the player only needs to outsmart the opponent by a small degree in order to be on par with their winning ability. When you have a character (Hawk) who has a good amount of 7 - 3 and 8 - 2 matchups, your ability to win will not be on par with your opponents’ simply because the characters’ involved in these matchups will play a much bigger role in ability to win which diminishes the effectiveness of player skill.

Think about it. Why is it that a Bad Blanka Player can give even a Masterful Hawk such an excruciatingly difficult time despite the enormous differences in player skill? It’s the characters being used in these matchups.

I think I might’ve gone too deep into this, but I’m so damn sleepy that I can’t help it. ZzZzZzZzZzZ. . . . .


Any tierlist made by the community as a whole is is not going to be the most accurate imo. People voting on them are typically mediocre players in the grand scheme of things going off character experience at their level or friends they play. A few examples from that list:

  • Honda 9th worst character in the game = Ich don’t think so
  • Blanka 12th and better than Ryu, Ken, Bison, Makoto, Yun, Cody, and Rose just to name a few = Ich don’t think so. Take out T. Hawk and he drops 10 places!
  • Oni and Evil Ryu 5th and 4th worst characters respectively = Ich don’t think so
  • T. Hawk vs. Gen = 3-7 = Ich don’t think so.

I agree with your point about matchup based tier lists being wonky though. I remember the Super tier list that had Honda top. He was good, but he was there because he trashed the mid lower tier (which happened to be the new characters at that time) better than most in the game…put him against the top 10 in the game though and he was largely disadvantaged including the likes of Guile, Sagat, Ryu, Seth, Sim, Fei…etc - he was actually never better than upper-mid tier for this reason alone. This is a large reason why tiers are nothing more than a benchmark. Personally I look at 32 things to determine tiers:

  1. How many match ups is a character heavily disadvantaged in and what are the total number of match ups they loose in even by a fraction.
  2. How do they fair against the top 10 characters in the game.

This is why for me a character like Adon is so good! He probably has 3-4 matches at disadvantage (no worse than 4-6) and the rest are even or better. Of those 3-4 matches they are largely characters that are not played heavily. Equally he is is disadvantaged against only Balrog in the top levels.

Then there is Fei. The guy has probably maybe two 4.5 - 5.5 matches and the rest he is 5 -5 or better. Again, out of the top dogs, Balrog is probably the one match he might have a disadvantage.

On Hawk and on topic, like Chazz stated, he is worse than Dan and the worst in the game because no other character has more 3-7 match ups and to compund it, he has a 2-8. Gief suffers the same fate to be fair, just not on the same scale.

As for Joes list I would change (no specific order per tier):

A+: Fei Long, Seth,
A: Viper, Adon, Akuma, Cammy
B+: Sagat, Ibuki, ***Rufus, ***Balrog
B: Abel, Ken, Ryu, Makoto, Cody, Bison
C+ Juri, E.Honda, Sakura, Guile, Rose, Yun, Vega, Blanka
C: Dhalsim, Yang, Gouken, D J, Fuerte, Chun Li
D+: E. Ryu, Oni, Zangief, Dudley, Guy
D: Hakan , Gen, Dan
E: T.Hawk

None of this really matters tbh! Would much prefer some people posting some new set ups, counters, traps etc, or discussing match ups.


The point of this is now exactly can a character like thawk be improved without him going nuts on the tier list. Remember, hawk is a very fragile character

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I have no idea how to make him better. He seems like he can still be a threat though… Koji uses him incredible well in Japan.

PS, Joe, love watching your SF4 games at the Break. Thumbs up for makin Hawk work.


It’s simple. Just replace his regular special moves with his EX ones and we’ll have a character that is very solid but not in the least bit powerful.

  1. FADC Tomahawk buster
  2. Larger box on U2


Honestly, if Capcom would do one of these two things for Hawk, he would be really solid IMO -

  1. Improve his meter building by 20%
  2. Improve his special moves

Seriously, Hawk is a HELPLESS character when he has no meter. His regular special moves are so terrible that having to depend on them is like the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight. Extremely risky and difficult to get in on characters, extremely difficult and risky to keep characters off him, and etc.

If Hawk has meter, he’s T.Suck, but if he doesn’t have meter, he’s T.Fail o_O


Which would of course make a hawk with full meter and ultra T.Pain.

You want him to be just good enough that he’s a contender, but not so good that he’s busted.

I think the ability to link into Condor Spire, and then having condor spire be safe on hit, would be a good start. But honestly, these kinds of things have been talked to death on these forums.