My Thoughts on Gouken Changes

gouken

#1

I think a little more changes could’ve made him better.


#2

Agree on the tatsu issues, especially regarding FADC ultra, but your point that Gouken can’t jab into combos is not valid anymore. He can if he links into cr.lp. It is a hard link since the plus frames on hit make it a 1 framer. I am pretty happy with the changes but would have liked kongo to be 2 zones and f.st.fp to hit crouching characters. I’d also have liked air tatsu to be easier to activate as low as possible and for f.st.mk to be a command normal. Other than that, thanks for the video.


#3

Edit: ^^^^ Same shit he said.

@2:00 you said Gouken can’t hit confirm and cancel from his light attacks. He can do it from a 1 frame link but if you chain attack it’s not possible.

For it to be easier Gouken would need more hit advantage on his light attacks or he’d need to be able to cancel his chain attacks.

Just my 2…


#4

The following is a copy-paste from another post I made a few hours ago, but it fits in perfectly into this forum thread. But first - regarding your video, very smart observations about the FADC to Ultra 1 being totally not worth the risk. The screen shake I haven’t ever been bothered by, so no comment there, and it looks like the other two posters here already made the correction to your video regarding a lack of specials being able to be produced in a combo starting with two crouching LPs. Still, my qualms below reference this 1-frame link and discuss how it’s still risky because all the ways to end it are unsafe on block.

"Gouken’s gotten better in Ultra, no arguments there. The radically buffed hit-box on Ex-Tatsu is the most dramatic buff in my opinion. It’s the only thing to make the opponent show some respect and back the hell off you. The 3-frame cr.LP is also nice, helping him out a tad when it comes to waking up with the opponent right in your face.

Nevertheless, I think Gouken’s got 3 major flaws that have yet to ever be addressed, and it’s these three things in combination that keep him from being competitive enough at high levels. Some of these flaws even end up flat out negating some of the buffs he received.

Flaw #1: No safe specials --> NONE of Gouken’s specials (most importantly, light Palm) is safe on block. All of them can eat a DP on block. Aside from the general problem of not being able to cause chip damage with anything beyond fireballs (provided they’re thrown far enough away), this ends up creating an extremely awful risk-reward situation when it comes to combos from light attacks/footsies. Below are 2 direct consequences from his specials not being safe on block, which directly negate 2 buffs Gouken got in Ultra.
Consequence #1: The buff to crouching LP allows Gouken now to perform a 1-frame link with cr.LP after cr.LP, allowing something like cr.LP - (1-frame-link) - cr.LP > palm/tatsu/fireball. The problem is that if Gouken misses the 1-frame link, then he will eat a DP (best case scenario) at the end of the string. That is, if Gouken ends the blocked string with palm/fireball, he eats a DP punish, and if he ends with a tatsu, he eats a lv3 focus attack or whatever maximum damage combo the opponent chooses. The 1-frame link isn’t worth attempting (particularly online) because the damage from ending with a light palm or fireball is pathetic, and ending with a tatsu, while allowing big damage, isn’t worth the risk of eating a lv3 focus if anything in the string goes wrong. Consequence #2: The buff to cr.MP (such that it combos to fireball up close) is completely negated by his fireball not being safe on block. This is supposed to be the
poke->fireball sequence akin to Ryu’s cr.LK->fireball, which allows for zoning and footsies that cause chip damage, if not full damage on hit. The problem is that since this only works as a combo up close, when it’s blocked, Gouken eats a DP after the hadoken because he’s too close. If you try it farther away so that the fireball is safe on block, then the sequence isn’t a combo and Gouken eats a DP after the blocked cr.MP (that is, his fireball gets DPed during start-up). Bottom line — Gouken eats a DP on block from the cr.MP->fireball sequence, regardless of spacing.

Flaw #2: Crappy backdash --> Because of Gouken’s pathetic distance on backdash, specials cannot be made safe using FADC->backdash. A fierce DP from Ryu punishes a blocked EX-palm that is FADC->backdashed, for example. Ex-Palm is a critical move that sets up Ultra or simply big damage, and unlike EX-tatsu, it’s very, very easy hit confirm for better meter management: if the first hit of EX-palm hits, then you’re golden and follow up with whatever you like, whereas if you see the first hit gets blocked, you have plenty of time to react by FADC-ing the second hit… except his back-dash leaves him vulnerable to punish.

Flaw #3: Air focus recovery time --> The recovery on landing after a successful air-focus is purposefully long, and for no good reason. It still has so much recovery that Gouken can be punished after CORRECTLY baiting an anti-air. To watch Akuma’s damn demon flip recover INSTANTLY, at 0 frames, while Gouken eats a punish after focusing a crouching fierce from Ryu, for example, is infuriating and downright unfair. The long recovery on this move ends up completely disabling a 50/50 approach by air, which Gouken is often forced to do, since his footsie game is unsafe (as covered by flaw #1).

The 3 flaws above, in combination, end up crippling Gouken in a lot of match-ups. He can’t out-footsie top tier characters, and he can’t approach by air. He can’t safely get chip damage, and the one link combo available to him from a poke, namely cr.LP (which doesn’t have great range, btw…), ends up being too risky to bother to try, because all of the specials that end it are unsafe on block. Add in the fact that FADC-backdash doesn’t make him safe on blocked special, and you get a host of match-ups that aren’t even (5-5) in the slightest.

Nobody asked for Gouken to get buffed to top tier. I’m not asking for it. Let tatsu be the most punishable move in the game. Leave Gouken with no chains to specials. Let his parry areas not overlap, such that jump-in attacks need to be parried with either high or mid parry depending on how delayed the attack is pressed. If any of these things were addressed, it’d be amazing and likely a bit unfair. Everybody’s got to have weaknesses. Gouken’s main weakness is still his wake-up game, which although buffed by Ex-tatsu, is still a main weakness and leads to more KO’s than anything else. The constant pressure from an opponent that does nothing but poke-throw games (mixed with some armor breaking moves that are safe on block) is still the bane of Gouken’s existence (or a Fei Long player that spams chicken wing NON-STOP while Gouken’s in the corner).

However, not addressing the flaws above end up making Gouken take risks THE ENTIRE FIGHT, because NOTHING HE CAN DO IS SAFE. Thus, the story of every Gouken fight lives up to the idea that ‘You can only guess right so many times.’ Plenty of other fighters don’t always have to guess THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE FIGHT. They have safe approaches and/or safe combos. There are specific points in a fight where a character can just DO what they want, knowing that it’s safe --> For example, after a knockdown, Sakura can safe-jump on Gouken and is free to poke into a tatsu special that is safe on block. But because of the 3 flaws above, Gouken’s only option to dominate a match is to zone out the other fighter, as up close, Gouken’s risk/reward game is simply not in his favor. It only takes one wrong guess before Gouken’s knocked down and has to deal with wake-up harassment for the rest of the fight. Ex-tatsu can only do so much, and the rest of his arsenal is UNSAFE. Final and bottom line - Gouken still has his risk-reward game heavily unbalanced in comparison to the rest of the cast."


#5

^ Gouken’s light palm is -4. If you push the opponent out with 1 or 2 light attacks, the pushback from the following palm strike will make it safe almost every time. Jab jab jab light palm, even if you miss the link, palm can’t be reversal uppercut by almost any character (Ken, Cammy, you name it). Light palm is comparable in safety to heavy punch soul spiral or light criminal upper (which are both -4 with high pushback). It is “punishable” but only in the strictest sense of the word. In 90% of real life cases it won’t get punshed (short of a few Supers or whatever).

The only thing I really agree with you here is about Gouken’s backdash. I think Gouken’s biggest flaws have to do with his shortcomings as a zoning character. Bad backdash, no easy 2-hit fireball, still no max range poke->fireball combo.


#6

@PSN_ViperGoomba‌ hadou is +2 on block, its impossible to get hit by a reversal


#7

I think he meant between pokes cancel to hado, like mp canceled into hado, or cr mp canceled into hado, which if that’s the case I think overall not even ruy gets safe on that too. At least that’s what I think of.


#8

Gotta vortex folks.

Cr. fp > hado is a true block string, as well as chain jabs.

If someone is mashing, then just stop your string and punish them for it. Even now, if you stop your string and some one does dp FADC, they are still -5 and you get to throw them or lp > EX Tatsu them.

Gouken can practically jump in on 90% of the cast for free after hard knock down, and please no DWU talk b/c there’s a work around for that too.

There are some match ups and situations where zoning isn’t going to work and so just vortex them for free.

Aside shotos and grapplers, mostly everyone has a shitty wake up vs. our dive kick. Abuse it folks.

If you don’t, you’ll just be chucking hado and running from corner to corner, trying to avoid holding down back. FUCK DAT!

LONG LIVE AGGRESSIVE GOUKEN!!!


#9

iamthatiam, I’m pretty much a noob, so go easy on me for not knowing this. When you say “mostly everyone has a shitty wake up vs. our dive kick”, do you mean the flip -> dive kick, or the command dive kick? Or does it matter? Still trying to figure out what I should be doing on my opponent’s wake up as Gouken.


#10

There’s a safe jump thread that still applies. It’s many threads down on the first Gouken page. It all still applies and DWU just requires a small manual adjustment. You need to learn the stuff in that page before you start applying it to DWU. I will say that cmd dk seems to have better ability to stuff things, but it’s hitstun is garbage. Flip divekick will also stuff some things but it’s really good at making things whiff.


#11

ok, thanks. I’ve been seeing the threads but wasn’t sure if they still applied in ultra.


#12

most of all keep an open mind w gouken, dont rely on japanese replays,.after hardknockdowns dont backdash and chuck plasma check your vortex reference table and see if any of them apply, if they do study up and learn as many as you can, if they dont apply at least you know em for when they do


#13

They still apply unless they do delayed wake up.

But when they do DWU you can delay it if you see the “technical que” or you can just manual the set up to hit them anyway.


#14

Thought long and hard about posting this… so bear with me folks. I will start with Goukens Tuning history (mostly ripped from Brady lol)

GOUKEN’S TUNING HISTORY (FROM BRADY)
**
STREET FIGHTER IV TO SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV**
CHANGE EFFECT
Ultra II added —
CL. hp damage reduced from 105 to 100 —
CL. hp damage reduced from 125 to 90 —
ST. hp active frames increased from 2 to 3, recovery reduced from 16 frames to 15, advantage on hit reduced from +4 to +2 Less advantage on hit, more potential for an opponent to get hit meaty, less likely to be whiff punished
ST. HK recovery reduced from 21 to 19, advantage on block changed from -5 to -3, advantage on hit changed from -2 to 0 Less likely to be whiff punished, safer on block and on hit
CR. lp damage decreased from 30 to 20 —
CR. hp damage decreased from 100 to 80 —
CR. LK startup frames reduced from 6 to 5 Slightly faster poke
CR. M advantage on hit increased from -2 to 0 Slightly safer on hit when not canceled
LP, MP, HP Hadoken damage decreased from 70 to 55 —
LP, MP, HP Charge Hadoken damage decreased from 60, 60 to 55, 55 —
EX Senkugoshoha damage reduced from 100, 60 to 90, 60 —

GF/DF Dive kick was also nerfed / No longer Overhead
GF/DG Grab was also nerfed / recovery frames added on landing. No longer 4 frame recovery

SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV TO SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV ARCADE EDITION
CHANGE EFFECT
CL. mp damage reduced from 75 to 65, advantage on block increased from +1 to +4, advantage on hit increased from +4 to +7 Additional frame advantage allows for more damaging combos on hit
CL. MK startup frames decreased from 5 to 3, recovery reduced from 18 to 15, advantage on block increased from -3 to 0, advantage on hit increased from +2 to +5 Easier to beat out fast attacks and throws, more advantageous on block
ST. mp advantage on block increased from -1 to +1 From slight disadvantage to slight advantage, generally safe to attack again on block if Gouken’s still in range
CR. MK advantage on hit reduced from 0 to -2 Less safe on hit
Jumping h gained juggle potential 1, now soft knockdown on airborne opponents Useful as a follow up to air-to-air jump m
Backthrow damage increased from 0 to 1 Now counts as an attack for damage scaling purposes
LP Senkugoshoha damage increased from 120 to 90, stun increased from 200 to 150, startup decreased from 21 frames to 9, recovery reduced from 23 frames to 21, advantage on block changed from -6 to -4, forward movement reduced Now combos off of attacks with less hitstun such as CR. l
EX Tatsumaki Gorasen pulls opponent inward on hit Reduced likelihood of opponent dropping out of the move
Kongoshin command changed to f + P, now the 3 different versions only match with a specific attack height

Now have to know where the attack will hit: an exceptionally deep jumping attack could be countered mid or even low
Ultra I cinematic version damage increased from 368 to 503, invincibility reduced from frames 1~13 to 1~12 Slightly less invincible on startup

ARCADE EDITION TO 2012 UPDATE
CHANGE EFFECT
CL. HK active frames changed from 2 (4) 3 to 5 (1) 3 First hit has increased active frames with a smaller gap in the middle
ST. mp advantage on hit increased from +4 to +5 Gives combos easier links
ST. hp active frames increased from 3 to 5, recovery reduced from 15 frames to 13 Attack stays out longer allowing opponent to get hit meaty
CR. hp advantage on hit changed from -4 to -3 Slightly safer on hit
3 + m active frames increase from 2 to 4, hitbox extended downward, hurtbox reduced on upper arm

More likely to hit opponent meaty
LP Senkugoshoha hitbox extended forward Hits from further away
MP Senkugoshoha damage reduced from 130 to 120, distance travelled now matches SFIV l version


HP Senkugoshoha damage reduced from 140 to 130 —
All versions of Kongoshin stun increased from 150 to 200 —
Super startup reduced from 1+10 to 1+2 Much faster on startup making it much more useful for anti-air and can now beat deep safe jumps landing in front of Gouken
Ultra II all versions damage increase by 45, charging to higher levels no longer based on how much Revenge Gauge Gouken has, can start mashing directions during Ultra flash Can charge to level 3 before the Ultra flash ends

**
2012 UPDATE TO ULTRA STREET FIGHTER IV**
CHANGE EFFECT
ST. LK now special and Super cancelable Now combos into LP Hadoken and LP Senkugoshoha
CR. lp startup reduced from 4 frames to 3 Allows Gouken to have a 3-frame normal from distances further than CL. MK allows enabling new combos
CR. mp changed from +1 to +3
Can now link CR. lp after CR. mp for a hit confirm combo

Back throw untechable timing period now techable Opponent able to quick rise if Gouken doesn’t combo off of his back throw
Kongoshin no longer activated with 3 7 3 + P shortcut

Less accidental Kongoshins while walking
Hyakki Gosai stun reduced from 200 to 160 —
LP Senkugoshoha forward movement slightly increased Increases usefulness in combos
EX Tatsumaki Gorasen startup reduced from 7 frames to 5, invincibility time reduced from 8 frames to 6, hitbox expanded downward and forward Allows Gouken more time to react to a jumping attack before anti-airing his opponent


My opinion on Gouken is, even with all the nerfs and tweaks throughout the different versions this is the most complete version of Gouken. He’s still a strong zoner (probably stronger b/c of the EX Tatsu buff) and he still does massive damage if your opponent makes a mistake or if you are able to force one.

He still has a crappy back dash and wake up challenges without EX but the most of the cast does as well.

I’m still on the fence about Red Focus b/c I haven’t found too many uses for it. Maybe I will as time goes on shrugs. Still it’s an added element to his game so I welcome it.

Delayed Wake Up- This helps out as well as gives Gouken a chance to escape some auto-pilot set ups so I welcome this change as well.

**LP Palm- Though the increased the range it’s still not exactly what I thought, it does hit more consistently than in the past. However, I’d love to see more forward movement and added push back to not sacrifice the safety.

**EX Tatsu- This shit is FOOLISH!! I love this move. Nuff said.

**Cr mp- I like the fact that you can use it reliably in close combos and close range. But it suffers at max range and isn’t a true block string. My hope in the beginning was they would make it +6 on hit so it could be safer to use and it could combo into cr. hk. I didn’t think that would have been broken b/c you couldn’t cancel it with cr. hp > EX palm from max range, and at close range we are at +7 anyway with cl st mp. Either way, I welcome this change as it gave us more combo options up close and a low combo. Could’ve been better, but it is better than what we had before.

**St LK- We can cancel it now!! The only real use I’ve really found for this is buffering tatsu afterwards. There are some tricky things like using it with frame traps. Another side use I found was canceling into GF set ups, but it’s not safe so… meh…

**Cr. lp- Buffed to 3 frames. So we we now 1 frame link into a combo. I really struggle with this one, b/c on one hand it’s a bitch to combo this reliably at a high rate (especially online), but considering the damage that we could get if we could jab>jab> EX Tatsu, I think many would cry OP very quickly, or we might get an EX Tatsu damage nerf if it was really easy to do. As of right now, I’m not a fan of nerfs, so I’ll stick with the 1 frame link. lol. We can also link after a meaty overhead, which I think is very good. Hard to do, but good.

**Backthrow- They added a normal tech window to back throw. Meh… I can dig it, I’ve played the mirror several times and teched his ass and still got thrown. Still is a 5 frame start up. with a 24 frame recovery, while normal throw is a 3 frame start up and a 20 frame recovery. Those 6 frames are the difference in between someone neutral jumping your throw and Gouken being able to block/Kongo, vs. some one neutral jumping back throw and blowing your ass up. At any rate, I’m cool with it, just gotta be careful going for that free Ultra. :slight_smile:

**GF/DF Parry- I love this move, but it does get irritating when I guess right and the opponent still lands with their 4 frame landing and I land with my 6 frame to get punished or to be at a disadvantage. Maybe Capcom will give GF/DF Parry a 4 frame landing if a move is actually parried and it could stay at 6 frames if it whiffs. Until then we just have to use it wisely.

**lp hado- Please lower the hit box so Gouken can hit Blanka when he does Electricity. lol

**Air Tatsu- Recovery time is 20 frames on the ground. LOL

**GF/DF- They didn’t nerf it. YAAAAY!

**Kongo- Wanted the HP/MP boxes to overlap. But I can deal with it. However those multi hit moves that beat kongo should be fixed. Zangief, Rolento, Elena, Blanka, Bison… but I guess that’s character specific nonsense… but FUCK DAT… Fix It! LOL

**Tatsu- Still doesn’t hit low, still throwable, still no invincibility, and still is -70 on block at best. I’ve totally given up on Capcom addressing this move. I just use it wisely.

**EX Palm- Still the same, though I was hoping the EX version could have fireball invincibility or hyper armor. Still, I love this move regardless.

**U1- Still slow start up but massive damage. Would love to see it in line more with Ryu’s U2. shrugs

**U2- Would love to be able to catch all wall bounces, but I still love Denjin.

Overall, I think Gouken is better and is as solid as he has ever been. The system changes only help him and add to his arsenal. He still relies heavily on EX for defensive purposes and at mid range he has to make good decisions to keep the opponent away. From afar his zoning is still strong and up close he has to be mindful of his approach to force mistakes.

Even though I think Gouken can still use some small tweaks, he manages to hold his ground better in this version than the previous ones.

And last but not least… LONG LIVE THE VORTEX!!!

AND fix these glitches and hit box issues.


#15

Is there a nice list of his vortex options? The safe jump topic seems to be more of a circle jerk than infodump


#16

Gaku’s YouTube page has a lot of detail and general setups.

In ultra DWU needs to be compensated for so there’s not a lot of detail out for that yet, as it changes up the rules a bit.

If they don’t DWU all the old set ups still work though.