Necalli Intermediate Thread: Ancient Aztechnology

necalli

#1

I have created this thread Ancient Aztechnology to serve as a place where intermediates, like myself, can communally learn the fundamentals through Necalli as well how to approach tackling the game as Necalli. After looking at both the [beginners](Necalli Beginners Thread thread and the more advanced [combo/tech](Necalli Combo/Tech Thread thread, I’ve realised that generally the information is either too simplistic i.e. “What buttons does Necalli have?” or too technical/execution-focused i.e. “How much of a frame advantage do I get from cr. Roundhouse and what combos can be chained off of it for big damage and stun?”. There is a need for a middle ground or rather a bridge between the two levels of conversation where situations that actually occur could be addressed.

I want to have conversations about actual situations that I’d face as Necalli and examine which buttons are either useful or harmful relative to them. I want to learn when NOT to use certain things without having to focus too deeply on how many active frames certain buttons have. I want to figure out when to use The Disc’s Guidance versus when to use Culminated Power OR what situations would be best served by activation of Torrent of Power versus when to hold. I want to examine when to use Opening Dagger versus when standing roundhouse is best.

There is a wealth of useful information which can be lost in the ‘complexity’ of advanced-level responses. Information which can be useless unless one has graduated beyond intermediate-level. This thread is for persons who want to learn how to navigate the many situations that SFV will throw at our Aztec warrior so let us devour our combined experiences to see the prophecy of greatness fulfilled.


#2

I tend to use Necalli in a very counter-offensive way. First looking for openings in my opponent’s guard then leading with The Disc’s Guidance. Once within close-quarters I find that I have more footsie options to choose from with his decently-ranged normals. All of this is fine but I still haven’t found a way to incorporate his command grab, i.e. Mask of Tlalli, into my play-style.

To get this ball rolling I have two questions:

  1. What situations have you all found in which Mask of Tlalli works well?
  2. What buttons do you use to open up your opponent to be command-grabbed?

#3

I already use st.lp tick command throw a lot if that’s what you’re asking for.


#4

I have been getting a lot of mileage out of mixing things up when my opponent blocks a c.mp. At that distance you throw another one to catch any retaliation pokes, or if they are too scared to press buttons you can shimmy a bit and try to catch them with a c.mk. Once you have them conditioned you can start dashing up into normal throw, command throw, or a frame trap while they are expecting another poke. It works outside of v-trigger, but once you are in v-trigger the faster dash makes it even stronger.


#5

That cr.MK does work well as a poke. I noticed as I was messing around in training last night.


#6

I have been messing around with the Stomp (Valiant Rebellion) to better understand its properties, but still cannot QUITE understand the best times to use it. I am assuming it’s best used as a combo finisher mostly, but has anyone else had different experiences with it?


#7

Yeah I have been messing around with it as well. What I found was that the HK-Stomp launches the opponent into the air which can then be followed up, if your timing is good enough, with either EX-Rising Light (DP) or EX-Stomp which has a longer startup but marches across the screen.

In terms of it being a combo finisher, I’m more inclined to agree with you when using the MK-Stomp but I’d also need to dedicate some more time to figuring out if they are other situations that I can use it safely. I’ve definitely found that it is unsafe to randomly throw it out unless the opponent is in sufficient blockstun.

I’m still trying to figure out how to incorporate LK-Stomp.


#8

So just so I’m clear, you’d toss a few jabs in then follow with the command throw when they attempt to standing block?

Also which button (LP, MP or HP) do you use for your command throw to complete your tick command throw and why?


#9

I like to use c.mp / c.mk into a m.stomp to fish for counter hits ( should blow up anyone trying to throw out jabs between the normal and the stomp). If the stomp connects follow up with a c.mp - Discs.


#10

I already use st.lp tick command throw a lot if that’s what you’re asking for.

Just use one jab or you will be out of range for the command throw.
I go for jab command throw because it can be done with negative edge and my execution is not the best yet (used to be a charge player in SF4). This gives me more chances while mashing out the command :slight_smile:


#11

Ah, thank you, I had been mainly using MK-Stomp and therefore didn’t realize that HK can launch.

I’m thinking it might be best to just use LK-Stomp as a whiff-punish, but not sure. Just a thought.

Noted, I will give this a shot.


#12

Light stomp is good buffered behind low forward since it combos and you can confirm into super pretty easily.

Medium is used in combos since you can link a crouching strong after

Heavy can combo after a crouching fierce and launches, you can juggle a DP, light stomp, ex stomp, or CA after.

Ex is generally used as a combo ender, although I believe Ex slash is a better option most of the time.

Another interesting thing with stomps is that they will go over lows, at least HK does.


#13

Oho. I never noticed that before but most of the times that I tried, I got punished in the gut. Definitely will check that out.


#14

It’s very tricky, you have to space yourself a little farther than you’d think since stomp moves you forward. But it’s so sick when you pull it off, especially if you can react with the CA juggle B)


#15

I’m currently doing some extensive testing on when divekick is -, 0, or + against each character. Finding some interesting things. Will post once I finish testing on everybody.

Edit:

Alright I can’t say that this is totally accurate but here it is what I found.

What I did was set the dummy to perform their quickest startup normal on guard recovery as a reversal. This will be a 3 frame move for some characters and a 4 frame move for the rest. I set the dummy to block all and performed a divekick under various circumstances and jabbed right after. Depending on if I get counterhit, our lights trade, or if mine beat theirs I noted a -, 0, or + for that specific circumstance. The different circumstances are as follows and were tested for each character:

WITHOUT V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing (Most disadvantageous)
Spaced divekick blocked standing
Divekick blocked crouching
Spaced divekick blocked crouching

WITH V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing
Spaced divekick blocked standing
Divekick blocked crouching
Spaced divekick blocked crouching (Most advantageous)

I also discovered another interesting possibility on the vast majority of characters. There is a very specific angle you can divekick at which will hit their hurtbox deeper than usual. It’s hard to explain, you want to divekick as if you’re trying to cross up with it, as far back on their hurtbox as possible. This makes the divekick slightly more +. I’ll refer to this as a deep divekick from here on out.

My results can be divided into groups. The groups are as follows:

GROUP #1 - RASHID, KEN, NASH, SIM
WITHOUT V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing = - (0 if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked standing = +
Divekick blocked crouching = +
Spaced divekick blocked crouching= +

WITH V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing = 0 (+ if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked standing = +
Divekick blocked crouching = +
Spaced divekick blocked crouching = +

These are the safest characters to divekick against. At worst, you are - but even then you are still safe.

GROUP #2 - VEGA, BISON, FANG
WITHOUT V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing = - (0 if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked standing = +
Divekick blocked crouching = +
Spaced divekick blocked crouching= +

WITH V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing = - (0 if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked standing = +
Divekick blocked crouching = +
Spaced divekick blocked crouching = +

Almost identical to group #1 except v-trigger blocked standing will not be + unless spaced. These characters also seem to be harder to hit the deep divekick on. You are still always safe on block

GROUP #3 - LAURA, NECALLI, KARIN
WITHOUT V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing = - (- if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked standing = +
Divekick blocked crouching = 0 (+ if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked crouching= +

WITH V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing = - (0 if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked standing = +
Divekick blocked crouching = +
Spaced divekick blocked crouching = +

These characters have 3 frame normals. Divekicking is slightly less advantageous without v-trigger than the previous groups. You are still safe on block.

GROUP #4 - MIKA, RYU, CHUN, CAMMY
WITHOUT V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing = - (0 if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked standing = 0
Divekick blocked crouching = 0 (+ if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked crouching= +

WITH V-Trigger:
Divekick blocked standing = - (0 if deep)
Spaced divekick blocked standing = 0
Divekick blocked crouching = +
Spaced divekick blocked crouching = +

3 frame normals here again. Slightly less advantageous than the previous groups again.

Birdie and Gief are oddballs here. Since they are so big, it is hard to get advantage on a blocked divekick. On top of this, you are actually punishable if they are standing. I do not recommend divekicking against these characters.

So there’s all of that. No clue how useful this is but if you’re wondering if/when you can safely press jab after a divekick then this might help you.


#16

lk stomp i often stick behind a cr mk or cr mp as a quick punish. if i know im gonna get a crush counter i’ll do st. hp into mk stomp through. its just nasty looking.


#17

Corner resets of EX command grab. How are people going with them? You sacrifice a lot of guaranteed damage to set one of these up. What is your success rate with them?


#18

You have a literal left/right/high/low/throw mixup in the corner after a st.lp reset, so it’s often worthwhile. There are 4 main corner resets.

st.lp: Lowest cashout, but lets you do the left/right/high/low/throw.
st.mp: Slightly higher payout, very hard to see the difference between it and a st.lp, but only lets you stay in front.
st.hp: Highest payout of the air resets and lets you do an automatic meaty HK Stomp in addition to a normal meaty or throw. Best in V-Trigger for all the frame advantage
DP: Most damage. Not really worth doing an EX unless it’ll kill or you need the stun.

Generally I think it’s worthwhile to do a st.lp corner reset as they have to guess which side. Done properly you can even get a super meaty st.lk, although cashing out with a DP is also often useful as it’s guaranteed damage and stun. I often end up doing a st.mp if I’m going to stay in front anyways as it’s hard as hell to notice that it’s not a jab and you get more damage and stun off it.

Midscreen doing a reset is a lot rarer, and it tends to be off a medium because you can’t cross up unless you’re in VT. I tend to like the sweep ender here; guaranteed super meaty st.lk, 150 damage and 185 stun as compared to the 168/185 of the HP DP ender which gives you no real followup pressure. In VT you just treat midscreen the same as the corner, albeit with less risk of putting yourself in the corner.


#19

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?


#20

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.