Need Some motivation and help from bison master

m-bison

#1

Hi all,
I feel like so hard to level up to next level. I think my level currently around 2000pp to 2500pp. I played a lot of good player in arcade ranged 2000pp to 4500pp.
I felt like stuck and demotivated now. Need advice from better player:
What I am able to do:
Combo including FADC consistently .
MU knowledge -average (but have better MU against those classic characters like ryu,ken,guile …etc)
Footsies and AA - average ,but I can do pretty good AA for cr. HP and st. RH but( I am weak at St HP)
Frame trap - average (feel so hard to apply especially against shoto characters)
Scrub level - I like to take unnecessary risk.
I also did unblockable and OS set up posted in the lab thread.But I sometimes mistimed it or apply in wrong scenario. I noticed that a lot of good player know how to beat those unblockable set up now.
Feel like bison is so hard to play against those 3k pp ++ opponent. The difficulty I think most bison player faced

  1. light scissors - if mistime => eat big combo
  2. cr short x3 to scissors ( the damage =.= …so low)
  3. Need really carefully apply St.RH , when opponent have good footsies.
  4. PC mix up ( after light scissors, is getting to predictable…even u do fake cross up…still won’t works against those really good player)
  5. fake devil reverse (even close distance) - is almost useless now…people read it like reading story book. Not sure why I felt capcom nerf this set up…seems like have longer recovery time for 2012? any clarification?
  6. Air to air ( first hit of hell attack, then mix up to cross physcho…almost useless now…ppl mash DP is see that coming)
  7. Ultra 1 is useful but quite hard to land on Good player. U2 is somehow useless against good player.
  8. Guile, Zangief , Seth , Honda…so hard to win …I also think that bison vs dhalsim…bison will lose in the long run given that bison move set is too predictable.
    9)Feel like depends more on guessing game to win a match

I wonder how those 2000 -3000 pp bison player progress to 4k pp ++. I notice that bison player really have to work super hard to get into above 3k pp level.

Few Specific question that I would like to ask bison master here.

1)After cr short x3 to light scissors, normally what you guys will do to exert more pressure but safe from to shoto characters beside PC mix up. I couldn’t found any safe jump for the follow up.

  1. Forward Throw shotos characters, what is the follow up? Only backward throw have safe jump & unblockable follow up pressure. Even unblockable don’t quite useful sometimes…some of the player do cr late DP to beat the set up…

  2. how to improve wake up games pressure? I noticed a lot of top player do OS set up (cr light jab -> st light jab + st RH) even against shotos? so guessing game again? personally i will always test opponent by baiting their DP using teleport.

Hope bison masters can help me here.


#2

Higher level players actually make raw light scissor kick usage dangerous. They will be looking for it once you see those random neutral jumps. Try to improve your footsie game with stand hk and stand mk. It’s okay if you don’t get chip, you can still pressure and zone with your pokes without risking eating a huge combo if they punish a whiffed scissor.

Also, when in any doubt at all, play more patiently. Better players require some laming.


#3

if you’re baiting DP’s with just teleport, you’re doing it wrong. you have a variety of ways you can test for a DP happy shoto (backdash, teleport, blocking in their face) you gotta condition them into not throwing that DP, and then you can get in and work your tick throws/frame traps.

Lame it out. I have a problem with the risk taking as well, but you should remember you have so many escape options and such a quick character that theres no point in taking unnecessary risks. just play more solid. there is a ton of info on these boards, so theres always something new to learn.

no need to rely on cross up PC. if they’re blocking it, you gotta mix it up.

if you’re getting DP’d for jmp, you are being read for being predictable on their jumps. you probably are looking for the j.mp and being predictable with it. you can AA on reaction with a jump.

the only time I seem to be able to land a u2 is if i’m playing a bad player.
try using aaRH > u2 if you’re having absolutely no luck landing these.

my problem is that when I use u1 I tend to never use it, unless off a j.mp.

just improve your pokes, and research the mu’s that are giving you trouble.

with that said, i’m not master but thought i’d give posting in the bison section an attempt.


#4

Whatever you do, don’t flow chart

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


#5

Thanks guys, I improve a lot by playing more patience.I noticed that It is somehow important to let your opponent mind fuck before you can truly pressure them. E.g let them think you play solid,AA , dont jump frequent and play footsies.

Once they think that’s how you play, you suddenly change your play style, it is much more easier to land ultra 1 (because they think you rarely do jumping) and apply scissors pressure to reduce your risk eaten from some wake up DP. Thanks guys.Some other questions…

1)How and when do you do St fierce AA? any specific character that is good you use on ?
2) How to do fake psycho mix up after 3xlk and scissors? Even I use medium psycho it’s still do cross up?
3) LEt Say you do a fake devil reverse and land in front of your opponent, you do st fierce them to bait they grab you,I notice that it is quite hard to do the follow up combo, how can you do it consistently? or simply just st fierce --> st HK?


#6

You mean standing close fierce, the uppercut? For aa that is pretty much for badly spaced cross up attempts or a very lucky guess. At least in my exp.

For number two try delaying the crusher slightly.

For three I question the use of St.cl.fierce in that situation. Most people are trying to punish you thinking its a stomp and most of those attempts start with moves that are faster, if they don’t just throw.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


#7

Thanks man. I didnt know it is for badly spaced cross up punishment purpose. How about punish neutral jump? bit risky? I saw some of the top bison do that…they are so godlike …=.=. miss AA eat big combo again.
well, For Q3 mostly I do that after they knock down…so get a little bit of frame advantage I think? but I dunno why I can’t combo it. Let say your score your opponent a knockdown, and you do a fake devil reverse. I usually do that after scissors knockdown or back throw.
If you land behind them, isn’t that possible you do St fierce --> Cr mk --> scissors? I always don’t get enough charge . OR simply just do St fierce --> St roundhouse?

and another question regarding match up knowledge. If a yun player put you in blockstring, how to avoid the stupid ex grab? so basically once they put you in block string, they guarantee can combo you after ex grab? can we mash cr lk or just grab them? because I know the ex grab is not throw invincible.


#8

It can work to stop neutral jumps, if your close enough. St.cl.hp doesn’t combo to cr.mk unless you counterhit with it, same with st.hk. You could try and do st.cl.hp, st.lk, st.hk but that is two one frame links and I am not sure if that works on everyone.


#9

Thanks stabicorn
I miss so much of the hit and run type of bison. Lame bison somehow feel boring to play but surprisingly I can always win those range 2K to 3k PP now.


#10

More question,
What is the best way to punish crouch tech masher? which biggest damage combo? let say you put the opponent in block string. What I did is only cr. mk then light scissors.


#11

Well I still a scrub as I start up, now I still get blown up but not as bad as it before, if you don’t mind a scrubby advice, take my 2cent.

for cr tec masher, it depends, if you have momentum, walk up to them RH, RH have funky hit box it always beat jab, and it cover few other things:
RH in good range BEATS:

Throw attempt
Stuff who lot things up
Beats jab
Beats short ( sometime if you time wrong it beat you, but is just a short and you will be out of range if it stuff u up)
Beat pre jump

but it lose to cr.mk, it lost to DP, it lost to FADC if they know is coming, it also lost to sweep.

Mix up your defense as well, I personally think Bison have to work Hard on only 3 things, other things on Bison it just too cheap, he have 1 million way to get away so much sht that make people spit on screen and call you out, really.

3 things are as follow if you want to know about it, it just my personal thought about Bison.

  1. Anti Air
  2. Set play include all safe jump and all unblockable option, also with option select.
  3. Match up.

Anti air help you fend off scrubby jump in and WIN by punish jump, that is entry lv but is also one of hardest thing to do, some MU you MUST have to guess 10 out or 10 anti air perfectly to win. I am not joking about this, most Bison bad match are related to this, and that is why is bad match up. (beside Guile)

Set play grant you his mix up game about further for anti air trade, some space your throw
are very fast and only thing they can get away is TEC or reversal, this unlock even more if they tec very accurately, higher and better lv of their cr.tec, harder you hit them out of it. combine with option select, your firepower drastically went up so much that Bison can be scary now.

Finally is Match Up, super important you must know all of them like Sagat match up, if you know that you can’t jump (not even one) and you have to pick ultra 2, and you have to build meter, by knowing this it make your chance to beat Sagat much much higher, sagat/chun li/sakura/shoto except ken are play all the same, but minor difference is in them, some you just need to walk forward 1 inch and let fireball push you back 2, by doing this you build meter, once you gets meter, no fireball character should ever harassing you from that moment. Include Gouken with his BS recovery and BS anti air.

that is my 2cent.


#12

I started to realise the useful and importance f AA on some of bison match up sometimes ago. I met one really good zangief last few weeks…I still can’t beat him nowBut.I think I am close to him now. His PP probably around 3k -4k gief. Long Time ago, I don’t even feel I can touch him cause scare of kara SPD. now not bad, at least our gap are not that far.

Wow,there are so many safe jump, unblockable option for some specific character.It is hard to remember all…sigh. Even the most common safe jump, back throw–> walk 2 step --> jump HP set up against 3 frame reversal shoto…sometimes I will miss this. Not sure whether I do it wrong or not…but sometimes it works . Very tight timing.

For OS, It is really hard to train alone,not sure anyway to set up the training option how to train OS.I know those input, but in real match …your mind just blank out suddenly. I need to train my mind to see that coming. E.g chun li back dash, rose back dash, dhalsim back dash or teleport…=.= . For shoto, I always bait DP try to read their mind before do OS pressure …

heh, I have a very good sagat match up :D…sagat is free for me for anything below 3.5KK pp or maybe 4k pp.I can handle fireball character quite well now except ken… kara throw pressure is so annoying …
Anyone hate gouken?..oh man feel like good gouken is quite troublesome for 2012.


#13

Anti Air is everything on Bison, because there is not many character can by pass his ground game, if there is character don’t jump, you beat them on the ground most of time. Fireball character is nothing once you have ex scissor, gdlk move.
If you can trade with Guile boom, and able to bait out the Flashkick, and also lock him in corner, is like 6/4, but if you spend too much health try to do that, is 7/3.

Gief, honda, and sakura, if you anti air, you better make sure it hits, because if you make one mistake in this match up especially anti air, you basically lose 30/40% of health, they do like 2 jump in, you die.

Gouken you have to make him guess, this might potentially be a bad match up. first gouken fireball have only 1 speed, so you can brainless jump it, only thing you need to do is make him guess and make your bet on he will do high arc fireball to punish your jump, this is other type of fireball zoning we talking about…
EX PSYCHO if you see one high arc fireball shooting or he charging in mid range.
empty jump more can make you live longer, first gouken ex tasu can anti air…very well, and send you back full screen is no joke.

Bison user all have long way to go, watch Dogura lose to Uryo make me sad, another BS character.


#14

I saw the match…this game just simple too bias and reward mix up character man.
neurosis vs eita…in SS2K12…
People just have incentive to do random DP just to knock down bison. If your opponent miss DP, what he will get punished? mostly a st mk or st hk or st hp (let say the position is hardly to do a combo). Once you get knock down, 2 mix up can dizzy you then KO you for an entire round.
Charge character hardly will win in 2012.
AE and AE 2012 is mix up character era.


#15

well those DP not really random, and beside, if is real random DP, it will get beat down pretty fast.
the mix up character is on top all the time, Abel and Makoto being apart but basically same character, that is why AE 2012 is pretty good, is very well balance and
there is not many weak character, there is not really a bad character, but the player with less knowledge about what is going on will lose.
If they mix up a lot, Bison can almost always reset it, they can’t have free approach every time…everything is risk, or reward depend on what others react.

Sakura for example, even we know the match up, is still a BS for Bison to guess, she can punish almost everything on block, scissor chip does nothing on her.
her MK and MP are way too fast and have too good hip box, Dogura was good example, never stick something out…

If you are down and feel about to lose because there is very limited about what your character, take more risk, I think that is what to take to beat very good player.
which make why AE balance, everyone can win, but everyone can lose…


#16

What I meant is people have incentive to mash dp on their wake up when vs bison. I 100% guarantee eita wont do that againts balrog or ryu (big punish for whiff dp characters)…he will eat 400 damage if he trying to wake up dp. That’s why bison never win in major tournament (1st place). Bison have to guess even you pressure your opponent. when bison get DP, whole momentum will be shift.
Yes 2012 is pretty balance, but stil favour to mix up character like Seth, C.viper, Sakura, Akuma , Cammy ( I really hate seth especially)
Traditional fireball characters like ryu,ken and charges character like bison,balrog,vega will be in disadvantage no matter what.


#17

well I tend to think if you develop your character to 100% (meant to be specialist for that character or style) you do fine in tourney.
Bison is hardcore character, 1st you need to down your and near perfection your Anti air and spacing, 2nd you have to perfect the safe jump and even unblockable plus the set play, it have to be perfect so once you are get those, make wake up DP is not even the option to anyone.
then 3rd you have to do match up perfection, who you can safe jump, who you should do more jump back fierce etc, and what punish what (cr.fierce punish random chicken wing etc)

when you get that, you will find your Bison 100x times more scary than any other character.
you are not forgiving at all, you punish anything and everything, and do crazy damage on wake up because they have to think escape and not do wake up DP FADC because is either unblockable or it will whiff, and if they have no teleport then they are done, they can’t jump because your AA, they can’t win ground because your footsie, they can’t shoot fireball because you never jump, no gimmick will overcome your walk forward, and if they force to be play that way, you win by st.mk, is that simple.

Dogura is the Bison I like most, do you check his video vs poonkgo seth?? he is amazing.
Bison DO get lot of damage in corner, or by follow other player pace, Neurosis did very well against Bonchan, if Boncahn is not one of best sagat in the world now.
my trainer main Gen, who knows Gen in AE now? not many I can said, but he try to use it to its fullest.
Check out BT Dieminion, his Guile is sick, who said Guile is boring? he win tourney left and right with Guile.
If you have develop your character to its fullest, might as well start worry about MU and other incentive, if you have done that, I am sure you will at least made out the pool of major, there are many good Bison out there, and we do have many show up on top 32 in tourney.
I think because not many people really play guile, and that is one of his 7/3, beside Guile, other match up is not as bad, and I think Bison still have lot of chance.

A lot player did very well in Bison, it just he is hard to play in high lv, and wake up DP on some character is a good option is just that simple, Adon will do it, Fei will do it, Ken will do it, if you can’t stop them doing it, is your fault not theirs, can you stop Sakura fierce on wake up? that is like 3F punch, you can’t stop it until you find the way to punish it every, single, time. That is why Bison is so good, he is not easy to punish on wake up by guaranteeing as option select, option select don’t cover everything, other player must use their brain to break your defensive mix up game to really hurt Bison.

No one bear any responsibility to stop anything, the game is to make them mind fuck enough and create the situation to either use it as tendency, or NOT use it at all, we have live in 50/50 world , but who can guess right more in one long guess streak is winner.
in that part that is why Daigo so scary, because he can almost guess most of them right in very early stage.


#18

Thanks man. I am on the route to do what you mentioned above but still far away.
There are less than 10 bison in the world who can utilise bison to 95%. Almost perfect spacing,AA,utilise unblockable fully, exert right. amount of pressure etc…maybe probably less than 5 bison .
neurosis , dogura , lsy9983 and few other US bison are my favourite bison though I learnt most of my technology from neurosis and lsy. Will watch more on dogura video so can learn more new tech. Thanks man
I knw gen is monster now man.but he is quite even vs bison in my humble opinion.But some gen player told me it is in bison favoured =.=.
Personally I can handle guile match up quite well…because I learnt from all pro here and watch lot of video how to handle guile.But still 6/4 to me…if both ppl utilise to 100%.
I think maybe i should work out more. thanks again


#19

I just said what I really feel, and for many thanks, that the pleasure is mine.
I basically build my Bison around this Bison forum, like from basic, people play me know I used to be super scrubby and I used to use pad.
hope see you on tourney with your name made out pool.

I love neurosis if he play solid…but I like lsy and dogura even more.
JeRon is like my lame masters…he is gdlk lame, omg I don’t know any other Bison will do the lame part better than him.


#20

Heh, probably I prefer neurosis style because he is play in very deceptive bison + solid bison but lack compared to dogura & US bison ( In order words sometimes do guess things like headstomp and slide).
dogura - very solid ( I feel too solid sometimes :P) + little bit of deceptiveness , :stuck_out_tongue: perhaps is not my style. I guess most of the US bison is similar to dogura style.
lsy9983 - feel like he rush down too much sometimes.
But agreed with you,I realised that lame bison becoming more important especially dealing with bad match up and dive kick characters .
II am just an above average casual player ^^, never thought of joining any tourney yet