I’m sorry but I have to call you out on PW. He’s certainly not the best of the five. Shuma should fit that bill, as he can function and infact does have a very good assist to back him up, one that isn’t easy to replicate. In fact, each of them except Tron have good assists. IF has LOG FOOT which is very nice, Shuma with Mystic Ray, and Gold Hsien-Ko assist does infact count because of the amount of lockdown it can provide(lockdown that the opponent can’t do crap about mind you). Even Tron has some fun and useful tech with her Beacon Bomb that can lead to, for example, a free Nemesis air grab. But what does PW have on his own to contribute to the team? A Low OTG assist as his best one…Why would you not just play Wesker? I mean, sure you can trade IF for RR, but that’s OK because their playstyles are completely different, one’s keepaway, one’s rush. PW is more or less rush because he HAS to land that Objection for anything to happen. And lets face it, Dark Wesker vs Dark Wright…just try to think about that.
keep in mind, it’s a low hitting assist that goes fullscreen, OTG’s and stays out for what can feel like FOREVER. in the heat of a fight, that assist gets lost very easily, and can open people up simply because they dont see it coming. It’s one of the few assists in the game that can actually list “hard to see coming” on its list of pros. it serves an entirely different purpose than Wesker gun IMO.
as for why I put him near the top of the 5, I dunno, It’s mostly just an inkling. I’ve seen PW on specially designed teams, and it can be scary, and a PW that HAS gone through all the bullshit and gotten his 3 items does become alot stronger, even without “Dark PW” or X factor.
I still think Tron is the absolute worst in the game. she has a shit zoning game, a shit grab/command grab game, some of the worst HSD in the game, some of the worst damage scaling in the game Hypers that are useless outside of combos, a reliance on meter to deal any worthwhile damage and does not build meter well compared to other high-hitcount characters, shitty normals that either neuter her combos due to multiple hits or early groundbounces or simply no longer work well because they got hit with the nerf stick, and she has really fucking hard time extending combos without assists. ALL Tron has is high health, and even then, she’s not even the highest.
Then again, the team argument can also be used on Tron. I’d like to redirect you to the previously mentioned Beacon Bomb setups. Infact, I’m more or less lumping her in with a new kind of point character I like to call the Swappers. These are characters that can hard tag to other characters and have them continue/reset a combo for large damage. Current known residents are Firebrand, Tron and She-Hulk. Also, how’s her meter building and you forgot that she also has a weird hitbox in her favor.
Back to PW, his powerup mode isn’t even that good either. It’s not like Frank or Phoenix where they just dominate the whole time. PW has chip in his favor, sure, and he does hurt, but one, his powerup mode isn’t eternal like the others, two, there’s no way not to have PW on screen and still power him up like with Frank and Phoenix, and three, other than his chip, his pointing Hs are his other kill moves, but the cH one doesn’t hit low, so there’s no real mixup game like what Phoenix and Frank have either.
Tron: My sparring buddy mains her, so I don’t think she’s awful. Her mixup and zoning game is shite, and her hitbox makes for an easy target. Worse still, her damage, outside of VERY specific relaunch combos, do little damage (Chris G has found a few exceptions in his Tron combos, but still). She does have a few great air normals and a surprisingly fast dash. It’s just outdone by quite a few others. She has a decent footsie game, and can keep things safe in the air, and she has a command throw, but just doesn’t have the speed or attacks to regulate those tools unless the player is a boss, AND he also has to have like, exactly the right assists. My friend’s got some tech, but it’s mostly odd setups and living off the poor matchup experience that everyone online has. She’s not terrible, and his Tron is actually a lot tougher for me than his Hulk or his Chris, but his day 3 Spencer proves harder. She’s usable, if you’re devoted to her, but the same effort elsewhere would be better placed. Oh, and her assists are bad.
Shuma and PW are mostly still unexplored, but I’ve talked about them a bit already. I’d say PW is secret mid-tier, and Shuma, even if you figure out all the technical crap (and his good combos are a BITCH to input), Shuma’s still secret lowish-tier with a decent assist. PW has the dog, and as a guy who has used every low otg assist origianlly in all of his teams (my Frank team used to have Wesker, my Haggar team used to have Wright), Dog is WAY different than wesker gun, and works if you find the shit.
Ghost Rider feels like a different kind of character than we’re used to. He ROCKS specific matchups, and I’d say he should only be used as a countering character. His space control’s fantastic on certain teams, but he just suffers from a lack of interesting stuff if he does not have assists. He’s just too dependant on other characters for any form of approach, zoning, or damage. He’s good at his own tools, but every other character can use some interesting stuff, and he’s left behind.
Doctor Strange can be great. He’s got fast teleports, interesting mixups, a gimlet of his own, he adds some amazing angles to THC tricks, and his assists are amazing. I personally love the bolts, and I barely even play strange. I’ve seen some British players have Firebrand reset into an eye of agamotto, setting up pretty-much unblockable firebrand resets into touches of death nearly every time, and I’ve seen Dire’s Strange, which uses Spencer’s assist to cause a restand and then his impact palm crumples after about 50 jump loops. He has potential, just not potential beyond a middish-tier position. Also, I don’t like how, despite his great mixups, nothing’s safe enough if blocked.
Hsien-Ko is the worst in my book, by far. She has interesting tech, that does barely anything, and her gimmicky god-assist game can be matched in usefulness by ANY good lockdown assist if the player knows how to keep them safe. Too bad, I’d use her if she wasn’t shite.
I was just sent a friend request by drey 323, who is apparently a Dallas Nemesis player, is that the online ID of someone on here?
I got it too. It must either be a regular, or a lurker.
As for this low tier debate, one thing I will say is, despite all the shit I’ve said about these characters, the fact that were all debating over which ones are viable is pretty solid proof that even the low tier is not as locked in as in other games. Even tron can pull out a victory, and not just against people that don’t block. They suck, but they don’t suck so much that they are useless.
UMVC3 low tier is god tier compared to MvC2 low tier.
As a Tron main, I’d like to clear up some misconceptions that I see here about her.
What’s her problem with HSD? I don’t see any. Damage scaling? Drills scale damage, yeah, but they also build a lot of bar in return.
Tron has to be played on point and depends on assists to set up her supers, but she’s actually not stingy about what assists you use to land her supers with. Some assists won’t let you land King Servbot, for example, but they’ll let you land Lunchtime and when you’re a character down, that’s good to keep in mind.
Meter? You should be building upwards of a bar if you land a hit. Also take into consideration ABEGEN’s DHC tech with Thor and other possibilities.
Damage? I think this is the point I find the most baffling. I’m pretty sure Tron can do more damage than Nemesis with both assists and only one super. You guys presumably know more about Nemesis than I and I’m aware of some of his resets, which potentially makes his damage limitless, but as far as absolutely guaranteed damage, I feel relatively secure in thinking Tron’s got him beat. Opening up an opponent up to allow for such an opportunity is another matter completely.
I’ll use my Tron team with Nemesis(Rocket Launcher) and Jill(Arrow Kick/wall bounce) as an example and my BnB off of a j. S with said team.
J. S, s. HS, airMMH, air H drill before hitting the ground, s.S, airMMHS, s. d.H, Jill, L beacon bomb, King Servbot, s. H, Nemesis, L beacon bomb, j. H H drill
Sorry for the mangled notation, but it’s hard to get some of it across in a more refined fashion, especially the relaunch part. Depending on how you mash, you can get 910,000 out of it. It’s pretty hard to get anything under 860,000, meaning dead Magneto and everybody down. Before the super, you end up with a little bit above a bar. After the drill at the end, you end up with around 75% - 80% of a bar. This combo is also corner to corner so you don’t have to worry about where on screen you start it from. If you’re close to the corner, you can omit the drill before to relaunch completely.
Her assists are bad and that’s just another reason why you play her on point. There’s really no reason to use Gustaff Fire anymore and her drill assist is absolutely useless from my testing. I feel Bandit Boulder is THE assist for her now. You can use it for combo extension for Frank, Haggar, Wesker, and probably others. You could maybe use it as a ghetto lockdown assist and you can definitely use it as a ghetto projectile. You could also potentially use it for wacky resets with how HSD works with it.
I don’t think Tron is anywhere near the worst character in the game. She has problems, sure, but if she gets a hit, your character is probably gonna be dead. I was actually thinking recently that Tron is better than Nemesis. His command grab is definitely better since it leads to more damage anywhere on screen, but I’m pretty sure hers has faster startup(I don’t have the guide so…) despite not being able to do anything other than that if you’re not near the corner. In terms of normals, I’d probably give it to Tron other than Nem’s starfish and armor. I’d like to hear your guys’ opinion on the matter because I haven’t nearly put in as much time in researching Nemesis as Tron.
Sorry for the long post about Tron, but with all the tiers I’ve seen lately around SRK, this is as good as a spot as any to vent.
Yeah, my buddy just showed me some tech that he has been developing in training mode for Tron, who he also mains. My face was fixed. Anyway, this couldn’t have come at a better time, because my sparring buddy just reevaluated my opinion of Tron. Apparently, Chris G did pretty well at a tourney with a Tron team he made, and my bud stole ALL OF IT (He also uses Chris/Tron).
I still say, she’s in need of specific teams, but damn, if I could barely hit Tron in my last few matches. Anyway, I still think everyone in this game can be used as long as you know the tech, and Hsien-Ko is the only one who is outclassed in most respects by a lot of other characters.
Also, to the Tronman, My buddy showed me a few uses for the Drill Assist over the Bandit Boulder. He uses it for a weird pushing away blockstring thing with Chris, and he can also extend stuff in very odd ways with it. Not as useful overall, but hell, with this game, anything can happen.
you bring up alot of good points, and since you’re a current Tron user, while I was a Vanilla user (dropped her like a rock. she no longer felt fun to me TBH) I respect you comin’ in here and defendin’ her.
I respectfully disagree though. Tron might be able to get good damage with assists, but anyone can get good damage with assists. that’s how 1/2 the cast get’s their damage. From my (outdated, yes) knowledge of Tron, her assistless damage was still pretty low compared to other heavies when she lacked assists, and the only way to pump it back up was by burning alot of meter. Nemesis might not be doing Hulk level damage, but it’s actually HARD to deal below 700k with Nemesis’s BnBs, and he has some viable assistless 800k combos as well. Slap some of nemesis’s resets on that and a dead character is easy. I’ll admit that with assists, Tron has scary damage, but when left alone, or put in a situation where she can’t use her assists, Nemesis has her beat IMO.
I recall her HSD and meter gain as rather bad, but since you’re a tron main and all, I’m not surprised if I’m wrong about that, I don’t research into her as much as nemmy.
as for the straight up “who is better?”, I have got to give it to Nemesis (what’s that? me? biased? haha, yeah…). Nemesis has a great set of normals, and is much more than Starfish and armor. j.M has a hitbox that would make hulk jealous, j.H is godlike we all know this, and j.S is deceptively large, and leads into a groundbounce. s.L has great range, and s.H has armor, and a good AA angle. cr.H is great for tick throws as well as for crossing under. all his normals are safe on block or can be cancelled into clothesline which IS safe on block, or command grab if you want to lay on the pressure. and s.S has one of the largest hitboxes in the game, without having ANY hurtbox, making good spacing with that move excellent. all versions of deadly reach are great armor breaking tools, assist killers, and just some of the best pokes IN THE GAME. All of nemesis’s normals have a use, we even recently found some cool shit with j.L!
Tron has j.M, and while j,H still has a good hitbox, it’s ability to turn into a combo got turned to shit. j.S is still a great move for people pressing buttons, and I guess s.L is nice due to the multiple hits. compared to Nemesis’s normals though, she’s lacking range and fast, long pokes that convert into comboes easy as pie. I will say though, her j.M is excellent, and is one of a handful of moves in the game that I would consider on par with nemesis in regards to poking.
as for command grabs, yeah, Trons is faster (My gut instinct is 3 framer? I’m not feeling it’s a 1 frame grab. [obviously wesker needed a 1 frame command grab. he was really lacking without it ~ sarcasm]) but I dont see her command grab game comparing to other grab heavy characters like Nemesis or Haggar and Thor. The range is REALLY bad, and while she can get a combo out of it, it doesn’t end in the same reset loops nemesis can get. I am unfamiliar with any throw setups tron has (please enlighten me, I’m genuinely curious) but honestly it’s mostly the range that’s not selling it to me. Nemesis may have a slow command grab (6 frame startup I think) but it has the best range in the game, and often, that’s how he lands, because it’s range is deceptively large.
so yeah, that’s an extended version of my opinion on tron. hope I wasnt too much of a jackass.
Oh, another case for Tron, she has Frank setups on par with Nova and Skrull, and works very well with shopping cart. I actually considered using her over Ammy for my Frank team for just that reason, but I’d rather have the ability to get Frank to level 5 off a combo if he’s snapped in or if Ammy lands a TAC, more variety, ya know? Also, ice plus Frank, just take me right now, that image is too awesome.
Tron’s fun, and has great normals and a surprisingly fast air dash, a wonky hitbox which makes combos on her different, and good normals. She is THE abuse bad matchup character, and really hard to touch, her damage is also good. She just doesn’t open up enough the way I play her. And I’m bad at making her safe, and I require both bounces on my teams, usually, and the only people she would be able to replace are of the wallbouncey variety. She’s unnoticed B+ tier in my book, but my book’s odd, I say everyone but the top 5 and Modok deserve to be B+ tier (They deserve god tier), and also Hsien-Ko (she is very very low tier. I’d love to see a Hsien-Ko player come here and disprove me, because I wanted to pick her up if she wasn’t garbage).
Thing about Tron is that she needs certain assists to make her super effective. And yeah, that’s not too far off from Nemesis, but Tron I feel needs more from her assists and suffers more without them. Tron’s waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better at instant overheading than Nemesis, so having something like Deadpool or Felicia is just awesome. Imagine jL + Felicia and try blocking that. Tron combo extenders are definitely on the scaling side and tend to cost a lot for good damage, but I often see her getting a lot meter for various reasons when pros use her, so there might be something there. Another nice thing about Tron is that she actually has invincible supers, even if they are sort of ass at actually BEING invincible, but they’re faster than Nemesis. And she DOES have an invincible, fast grab which is probably very useful, especially compared to our lumbering zombie friend.
But Macaratti’s right, Nemesis simply has more. His zoning and keepaway are functional to good, his normals are drastically better, his DHC into someone is almost universally synergetic, his angles are astounding, and Tron’s impressive damage depends greatly on the assist backing her up. If Tron were assistsless, what would her damage be. Nice thing about Nemesis is that A) His reset options greatly increase damage even if scaling from something like Doom Beam happens, and B) He still gets a crap ton of damage off random hits without assists backing him up. If we’re talking about 1 meter damage, and using assists, I’m pretty sure Nemesis can match Tron’s damage in the certain instances involving the corner. motion51 is often churning out new corner combos that range from 750,000 with a slam and 935,000 without, using one meter and assists, so yeah.
Also, it’s 5 frames for L command grab, 3 for M and 1 for H
woah, Tentacle slam H is 1 frame!? i never knew that!
but yeah, Gil’s pretty spot on.
I gotta watch motion’s videos more. Yowza.
Something for Nem to be jealous of is Tron’s level 3 hyper. I wants that startup invincibility SO BAD.
No, Tron’s is.
Nemesis is 7 for L, 20 for M/H
what the fuck did people on here really say that Tron does low damage?
lol she does more than Nemmy with just 1 clakeyD assist off many more hitconfirms, and an combo extender assist for throws. srsly ppl Tron is shit, but at least MAKE SURE you know what you’re on about.
and most of these are probably suboptimal.
ok, I see now. thought you were referring to nemesis. I knew it was too good to be true XD
aaaaaaaand there’s where I get exposed.
followed the link and took a look, and yeah, I was **wrong. **Her meter building is excellent, and her combos with an assist do some great damage. I feel like an idiot now. That’s what I get for dropping a character and continuing to think I know what I’m talking about XD. I still say her solo damage is a little gimped, but yeah, that assisted damage was legit.
my apologies for not doin’ my research folks.
Her solo damage IS crap, mostly because she can’t OTG into Hyper without assists and all of her grounded combo extenders add a crap ton of scaling, such as Gustaff Fire. Tron’s damage has always stemmed from her chaining of Hypers more than anything else, as while she can reach high damage without hypers, doing so is often in rare instances. Her moves more or less function like Zero or Chun-Li, the initially look like they do no damage, but after a while you notice that their minimum scaling is pretty high because of the multiple hits. So on one hand she has heavy-level damage with the likes of jH or S or whatnot, and on the other she has Bonne Strike and Gustaff Fire that don’t do much but also don’t scale too hard. The reason she’s so assist dependand is that she can’t transition from one to the other without assists or perfect setups, and lets not even forget her issues with OTGing.
yeah, that pretty much sums up my main issue with Tron. Her tech with assists is REALLY good, and really raises her usability, but if she’s left without an assist to use, or doesnt have any assists that have good combo synergy, then yeah, she’s rather gimped.
I will say, after watching some of those tron combo vids, her meter gain IS a fuckton better than I originally thought, so her not having meter to burn is a situation she wont have to worry about too much. it looked like most combos build at least 1 meter before the first use of a hyper.
Sorry to stop the low-tier discussion, but there’s something I’m curious about. I watch a ton of House of Crack, and has anyone taken a look at Bum’s alt team? He used to run Spencer, but he runs Cap(Something, he barely uses cap assist), Arthur (Daggers), Nemesis(Launcher Slam). And yeah, that’s the order. So, I was thinkin’ what?! but after watching a few matches, I see what he was going for.
So, Cap in front gets a nice amount of extension for everything he owns with that launcher slam, and the assist makes his incoming mixup game pretty intense, actually. In addition, his choice of Spencer and now Cap for lead is really specific, because they both have that hyper that goes into knockdown, which means Bum has his same Haggar THC tech for his alts. The THC is…well, I’ve never seen so much damage in a single THC in my life, as in, it did 3/4’s of Dante’s hp by itself. That is INSANE! That Nemesis boot will always connect at the end of it, with or without Arthur’s Sonic Bracelet in the mix, which means extension, reliability, and even more damage. And you never get the Nem DHC, basically, with how Bum uses his hypers. I have watched a few sets with this team, and Nemesis rarely gets left as anchor, either. He usually switches in during the death of a character, then rushes down with Arthur daggers backing him up (a lot of the time Golden, too), which is a much better position for Nem than the opening of a match. Also, his Cap assist seems to be of the least use to the team, so Cap lead makes sense, but he foregoes the DHC problem of second-spot Nem by putting him in last (Arthur also has a very fun DHC). His Cap seems recent, because it is, but his Arthur is one of the best, and his Nem, while not jaw-dropping, is solid, and reads well.
I mean, all of us are in preference of Nemesis lead, because this is the character we know best (for most of us, anyway), and the character we wanna showcase, and assist really makes Nemesis as comfortable as the higher tier characters in movement and smacking people in the face. Nemesis second has also been shown to be pretty viable by Airtola, but that requires some more specific stuff, and you can’t rely on higher-damage DHC’s and multiple assists for Nemesis, not all the time, anyway. Is it possible that we could also make some “support Nemesis” teams that manage to still keep Nem with assists? With meter-building characters and some good Team Hyper tech, it seems possible to slap Nem at the end of a very specific team, as blasphemous as that sounds. I found one amazing example, from a man who knows this game inside and out. I’mma check this shit out over the summer, see what I can see.
Can anyone think of some other good team ideas to make use of this? My first thought that comes to mind is Dormammu, who has some intense THC damage, and likes the bounce. He can also get Nemesis a nice safe tag with his big Ball of Cheese, so Nem gets stuck as anchor less, and Dorm can fill the role of anchor pretty well. BRAINSTORMING TIME!!! Oh, and Storm might like it a bit, but that I’m less certain about.