I gotta watch motion’s videos more. Yowza.
Something for Nem to be jealous of is Tron’s level 3 hyper. I wants that startup invincibility SO BAD.
No, Tron’s is.
Nemesis is 7 for L, 20 for M/H
what the fuck did people on here really say that Tron does low damage?
lol she does more than Nemmy with just 1 clakeyD assist off many more hitconfirms, and an combo extender assist for throws. srsly ppl Tron is shit, but at least MAKE SURE you know what you’re on about.
and most of these are probably suboptimal.
ok, I see now. thought you were referring to nemesis. I knew it was too good to be true XD
aaaaaaaand there’s where I get exposed.
followed the link and took a look, and yeah, I was **wrong. **Her meter building is excellent, and her combos with an assist do some great damage. I feel like an idiot now. That’s what I get for dropping a character and continuing to think I know what I’m talking about XD. I still say her solo damage is a little gimped, but yeah, that assisted damage was legit.
my apologies for not doin’ my research folks.
Her solo damage IS crap, mostly because she can’t OTG into Hyper without assists and all of her grounded combo extenders add a crap ton of scaling, such as Gustaff Fire. Tron’s damage has always stemmed from her chaining of Hypers more than anything else, as while she can reach high damage without hypers, doing so is often in rare instances. Her moves more or less function like Zero or Chun-Li, the initially look like they do no damage, but after a while you notice that their minimum scaling is pretty high because of the multiple hits. So on one hand she has heavy-level damage with the likes of jH or S or whatnot, and on the other she has Bonne Strike and Gustaff Fire that don’t do much but also don’t scale too hard. The reason she’s so assist dependand is that she can’t transition from one to the other without assists or perfect setups, and lets not even forget her issues with OTGing.
yeah, that pretty much sums up my main issue with Tron. Her tech with assists is REALLY good, and really raises her usability, but if she’s left without an assist to use, or doesnt have any assists that have good combo synergy, then yeah, she’s rather gimped.
I will say, after watching some of those tron combo vids, her meter gain IS a fuckton better than I originally thought, so her not having meter to burn is a situation she wont have to worry about too much. it looked like most combos build at least 1 meter before the first use of a hyper.
Sorry to stop the low-tier discussion, but there’s something I’m curious about. I watch a ton of House of Crack, and has anyone taken a look at Bum’s alt team? He used to run Spencer, but he runs Cap(Something, he barely uses cap assist), Arthur (Daggers), Nemesis(Launcher Slam). And yeah, that’s the order. So, I was thinkin’ what?! but after watching a few matches, I see what he was going for.
So, Cap in front gets a nice amount of extension for everything he owns with that launcher slam, and the assist makes his incoming mixup game pretty intense, actually. In addition, his choice of Spencer and now Cap for lead is really specific, because they both have that hyper that goes into knockdown, which means Bum has his same Haggar THC tech for his alts. The THC is…well, I’ve never seen so much damage in a single THC in my life, as in, it did 3/4’s of Dante’s hp by itself. That is INSANE! That Nemesis boot will always connect at the end of it, with or without Arthur’s Sonic Bracelet in the mix, which means extension, reliability, and even more damage. And you never get the Nem DHC, basically, with how Bum uses his hypers. I have watched a few sets with this team, and Nemesis rarely gets left as anchor, either. He usually switches in during the death of a character, then rushes down with Arthur daggers backing him up (a lot of the time Golden, too), which is a much better position for Nem than the opening of a match. Also, his Cap assist seems to be of the least use to the team, so Cap lead makes sense, but he foregoes the DHC problem of second-spot Nem by putting him in last (Arthur also has a very fun DHC). His Cap seems recent, because it is, but his Arthur is one of the best, and his Nem, while not jaw-dropping, is solid, and reads well.
I mean, all of us are in preference of Nemesis lead, because this is the character we know best (for most of us, anyway), and the character we wanna showcase, and assist really makes Nemesis as comfortable as the higher tier characters in movement and smacking people in the face. Nemesis second has also been shown to be pretty viable by Airtola, but that requires some more specific stuff, and you can’t rely on higher-damage DHC’s and multiple assists for Nemesis, not all the time, anyway. Is it possible that we could also make some “support Nemesis” teams that manage to still keep Nem with assists? With meter-building characters and some good Team Hyper tech, it seems possible to slap Nem at the end of a very specific team, as blasphemous as that sounds. I found one amazing example, from a man who knows this game inside and out. I’mma check this shit out over the summer, see what I can see.
Can anyone think of some other good team ideas to make use of this? My first thought that comes to mind is Dormammu, who has some intense THC damage, and likes the bounce. He can also get Nemesis a nice safe tag with his big Ball of Cheese, so Nem gets stuck as anchor less, and Dorm can fill the role of anchor pretty well. BRAINSTORMING TIME!!! Oh, and Storm might like it a bit, but that I’m less certain about.
huh, mind linkin’ to some vids of this guy? I’d love to see him in action.
as for the setup, I can see that working fine. I think the reason it works is that he’s not using Nemesis in last as “anchor nemesis”, he simply has him in back because that’s the order that gives him the most control over his team. Most players don’t call in their last character unless it’s for a DHC kill, since the last character slot has been universally deemed “anchor” by almost everyone. Rather than playing by slots, he’s playing by the entire team.
My guess is, his game plan is to keep his whole team alive and kicking, and to be as fluid as possible, so there’s no “oh fuck, there goes my point character TIME TO EAT A COMEBACK” that happens on some teams.
I can dig that
Bum is a freaking god despite not going to tourneys. About the Nemesis support idea, it sounds interesting. Perhaps if I start Dorm/Arthur/Nemesis, a good idea would be to do Stalking Flare, DHC into Golden Armor, and then hard-tag Nemesis in so the order becomes Nemesis/Dorm/Arthur with frame advantage and Golden Daggers.
Though the big problem is that Dorm on point can be iffy since he needs space to start and that space isn’t always available to him.
I tried out Wesker/Dorm/Nem very recently, and though I don’t really play Wesker, and am very meh with Dorm, the team has some very obvious perks. Launcher Slam made every combo longer, that was a fun thing, and though I was entirely improvising my combos, the assists made it easier than I thought. On incoming, I managed to do some good stuff with launcher slam and crossunders with Wesker, and Dorm could probly do more on incoming with it. Every THC, two or three person, was very damaging, and I could always combo afterwards. Oh, and I actually really enjoyed pressing Dorm’s THC button on reaction to an opponent dashing or trying to zone. It’s a funny hit confirm, in a way, not the most efficient, but if you have meter to burn, it’s awesome. I got caught with Nem anchor from time to time, but mostly I usually switched in Nem when I killed a character with Dorm, or just threw out a stalking flare and raw-tagged.
Thing is that Nem/Dorm/Wesker is quite good, as well as Dorm/Nem/Wesker. Nemesis in last could work, but I’d probly want to learn what the hell I’m doing with the other members of my team first. But the big advantage is the THC, so I need to capitalize around that, otherwise why not start Nem point. Still trying to work this out in my head.
there’s a video somewhere (that i can’t find) that is a few setups on incoming, Wesker teleport + Launcher Slam that iirc option selects into a throw or something like that. too bad i can’t find it =/
usually the only time i have Wesker out with Nemesis in the back is when someone tries to snap in Wesker; i just wing it on the incoming setups with Launcher Slam + a teleport and see what happens.
damn, pretty sure i found it in my bookmarks but the video was removed.
Speaking of Wesker, is it really important that Nemesis gets an OTG assist?
Not terribly. Nemesis is in the boat of characters who benefit from it, but it isn’t needed that much. Gunshot lets Nemesis turn random launches and hits into reset setups, but the actually combo extension is rather poor compared to others, as Nemesis’s own combo extension and extended damage scaling is so good/poor respectively.
assists I find nemesis benefits the most from are assists that work as projectiles/ tools for approaching AS WELL AS combo extenders.
that’s why I have so much love for drones
not to state obvious old news over and over, but otg assists also let Nemesis do slightly more damage via cH/Rocket/BHR.
as for this off point Nem discussion, I play him second b/c my team is centered around Hulk.
Yeah, if I’m able to tack a rocket into a hyper on a combo, I prefer that over RL slam H. It does more damage and scales better I find.
rockets are to nemmy as unscaled vertical grabs are to spencer…the more you land the more damage youll output!
number of hits vs damage vs scaling nonsense…rockets are the shit!!!
in that regard i find ground bounce assists and certain wallbounce assists are great for getting massive damage with nemesis, sure he has his own toolset to get those things to happen on his own but why not throw out a rocket and assist call and get a free second rocket out of it?
Gustaff Fire does scale combos badly, but I never use it in combos because of how j. H is now and I honestly can’t picture a situation where you have to use it in order to extend a combo.
In regards to assists, is it even possible to have both assists unavailable outside of a combo? I think you guys are making too big of a deal about what assists she needs to go into her supers. From my testing, only two characters on the Capcom side(Morrigan and Zero) have no assist that lets you transition from OTG to super. Sure, some might only let you get Lunchtime and not King Servbot, but it’s better than nothing. Only one assist(Strider’s Gram) is unrealistic in practice because of how strong one of his others(Vajra) is.
If you have X-Factor, you don’t need an assist to land a super in an extended combo. You can just end the combo before you typically call an assist and OTG and instead go straight into King Servbot and after the cinematic ends, you X-Factor and OTG. If you don’t have any other characters or X-Factor, you’re boned(or should I say Bonned?!). All you can really do is just shorten your combos and go for Lunchtime.
I personally don’t have any command grab setups. You should check out some of Rikir’s matches. He seems to land them a lot. You can mitigate some of its poor range if you kara with s. H. Also, keep her ground dash in mind in regards to the range of her command grab and her ground normals.
My litmus test for whether a character has good DHC synergy with Tron is whether you can land a King Servbot or not and Nemesis passes this test. Also if the DHC ends up near the corner, if you didn’t use up Tron’s assist with Nemesis on point, which is very likely, and if you have Nemesis on rocket assist and maybe even clocket, you can end the combo in the same fashion as the one I posted earlier in this thread. You can also land Nem’s punch super from Lunchtime and I think even from King Servbot. I don’t know if that’s noteworthy, though.
Both rocket and clocket allow you to transition from OTG to super for Tron.
Also, if you used Nem’s assist before you can OTG to super and have two bars, you can THC. After the bounce from the boot, you can beacon bomb and end it in the same fashion as the combo I listed earlier.
Chris passes my DHC test as well because you can land King Servbot from his grenade launcher super and I’m pretty sure his sweep one as well.
If you have Chris on Gunfire assist and it’s available in a combo, you can call his assist, OTG, H drill into Lunchtime. You can also use it to set up for j. H H drill finisher after the DHC into Tron as well, but it’s harder to get it to hit than Nem’s rocket.
On Bum’s Nem team:
I don’t understand the order, especially if he goes for THCs because Cap can’t OTG Shield Slash and THC. I could understand if Nem required Arthur’s Goddess Bracelet in order for the boot not to whiff, but he doesn’t.
What is Nem’s DHC problem? Is it the boot whiffing, damage, or something else entirely?
I also advise against putting Arthur in Gold Armor and tagging him out. Sure, it makes his assists better, but you’re risking a lot by doing so if your opponent’s character can OTG him after his armor breaks. You also have to burn a bar to get him back to his normal state if you don’t want to deal with the extra damage he receives in his underwear(I think he takes 40% more damage).
On Airtola’s team:
I also don’t understand the order of his team. Nem’s rocket super seems practically designed for a Gamma Crush DHC. Also, if he had Hulk on anti-air assist, he can probably play kind of lame with Nem. Sure, Nem doesn’t do as much damage as Hulk, but Hulk requires the corner to do the most damage and Nem’s rocket super is good at carrying the opponent closer to it. Also, the assist he has with Nem(rocket) is pretty much just for combo extension in the corner since he has Task’s arrows to cover his approach.
On Nem’s THC:
I actually investigated THCs a lot at the end of vanilla and early on in Ultimate. Unless you’re playing Wesker, the key ingredient I found for most THCs is a super that OTGs quickly and Nem’s fulfills that role. His THC is also unique in that it lasts a while(it seems a little shorter than Okami Shuffle), carries to the corner well, and produces a ground bounce even if you’ve used it up in a combo, which led me to…
On Haggar/Nem THC:
My brain immediately went to this combo yesterday after reading this discussion and it worked. I didn’t test it extensively, but from what little testing I’ve done, it seems to work best on larger characters and it seems to not work on smaller characters. Maybe, it does, but if that’s the case, the timing seems super strict. You can probably take shortcuts to mitigate this issue. The whole point of this was for it to be corner to corner and to produce a ground bounce for Haggar in case he already used his. The vibe I get is that smaller the character is, the less it becomes a true corner to corner combo. This combo could probably be optimized more, but here it goes.
j. Pipe, c. M S, air MMH Pipe, call Nem, c. H, Nem Rocket, f. H, whiff L Hoodlum Launcher, c. H, whiff f. H, c. H, whiff f. H, THC, dash to corner, Nem boot from THC, [c. M, H Hoodlum Launcher reset], [j. qcf. S, c. H, whiff f. H, c. H, whiff f. H], or [j. Pipe, c. H, whiff f. H, c. H, whiff f. H]
The damage I’m about to post is based on Haggar’s super whiffing, which it will if you’re not near the corner when you THC. It does ~751,800 before the Hoodlum Launcher reset. ~800,300 with the j. qcf. S finisher. ~786,800 with j. Pipe finisher. You can also probably finish the combo with S, air qcf. S, c. H x2, but I’m not good at landing air qcf. S raw in general. You can also probably extend the combo even more with assists if you don’t go the reset route. The closer to the opposing corner you are at the beginning of the combo, the easier it is to dash and finish it. I’m bad at wave dashing with Haggar so when it was truly a corner to corner combo, I had a hard time finishing it. The parts where character size cause problems is the Nem Rocket and the second c. H after the whiff L Hoodlum Launcher. The second c. H is not that big of a problem. It’s just nice to do because it pushes the character further towards the corner and thus losing some of its corner to corner potential if avoided. Nem Rocket is a bigger problem. You need the f. H to hit. Otherwise, the combo drops and the character recovers. That’s where the timing gets strict as character size diminishes. On Sentinel and Hulk, it’s easy. On Rocket Raccoon, it might be impossible. This problem could probably be fixed by just using an assist from another character instead. This part pushes characters closer to the corner as well so it becomes even less of a true corner to corner if it’s omitted. Keep in mind, I tested all this with just Haggar and Nem basically in a vacuum so make sure that whatever team you construct that the super from the other character in the THC doesn’t mess up Nem’s.
EDIT: You can totally do the Hoodlum Launcher reset with s. L with this combo. For some reason, I thought you couldn’t.
EDIT AGAIN: Alright, I’m an idiot. You can do a much simpler combo that from my testing works on everyone and is truly corner to corner.
j. Pipe, c. M S, air MMH PIpe S, dash, c. H, whiff f. H x whiff L Hoodlum Launcher, c. H, whiff f. H, THC
The one above probably build more bar and does more damage, but this one is more realistic. This is becoming the neverending post.
Man, this post is long as all hell, but at least, some of it is on topic this time.
^ couple things:
Gustaff Fire is still used in and still starts certain combos (i.e fM anti-air, Fire CC, neutral jump airthrow, etc). Regardless of scaling, Tron’s damage mostly comes from being a self sustained meter hog. Sure there are situational oddities like jH, jMMH etc that will retain high meterless damage at minimum scaling, but those are in the far minority and almost never used.
imo King Servbot-XF-OTG is only good for happy birthdays, or if (god forbid) Tron’s anchor. works great tho.
I’ve never felt that Tron/Nem (a troll team I run) had good synergy, but it is fun to exploit the Beacon Bomb reset on foes that don’t know about it.
Airtola’s team comp actually makes perfect sense if he’s going for what I think he has it for (ground/air throw ToDs). Anyone here know which Hulk assist he runs?