"Nem-Assists": The Nemesis Teambuilding/Assists Thread

nemesis-t-type

#476

I tried out Wesker/Dorm/Nem very recently, and though I don’t really play Wesker, and am very meh with Dorm, the team has some very obvious perks. Launcher Slam made every combo longer, that was a fun thing, and though I was entirely improvising my combos, the assists made it easier than I thought. On incoming, I managed to do some good stuff with launcher slam and crossunders with Wesker, and Dorm could probly do more on incoming with it. Every THC, two or three person, was very damaging, and I could always combo afterwards. Oh, and I actually really enjoyed pressing Dorm’s THC button on reaction to an opponent dashing or trying to zone. It’s a funny hit confirm, in a way, not the most efficient, but if you have meter to burn, it’s awesome. I got caught with Nem anchor from time to time, but mostly I usually switched in Nem when I killed a character with Dorm, or just threw out a stalking flare and raw-tagged.

Thing is that Nem/Dorm/Wesker is quite good, as well as Dorm/Nem/Wesker. Nemesis in last could work, but I’d probly want to learn what the hell I’m doing with the other members of my team first. But the big advantage is the THC, so I need to capitalize around that, otherwise why not start Nem point. Still trying to work this out in my head.


#477

there’s a video somewhere (that i can’t find) that is a few setups on incoming, Wesker teleport + Launcher Slam that iirc option selects into a throw or something like that. too bad i can’t find it =/

usually the only time i have Wesker out with Nemesis in the back is when someone tries to snap in Wesker; i just wing it on the incoming setups with Launcher Slam + a teleport and see what happens.


#478

damn, pretty sure i found it in my bookmarks but the video was removed.


#479

Speaking of Wesker, is it really important that Nemesis gets an OTG assist?


#480

Not terribly. Nemesis is in the boat of characters who benefit from it, but it isn’t needed that much. Gunshot lets Nemesis turn random launches and hits into reset setups, but the actually combo extension is rather poor compared to others, as Nemesis’s own combo extension and extended damage scaling is so good/poor respectively.


#481

assists I find nemesis benefits the most from are assists that work as projectiles/ tools for approaching AS WELL AS combo extenders.

that’s why I have so much love for drones


#482

not to state obvious old news over and over, but otg assists also let Nemesis do slightly more damage via cH/Rocket/BHR.

as for this off point Nem discussion, I play him second b/c my team is centered around Hulk.


#483

Yeah, if I’m able to tack a rocket into a hyper on a combo, I prefer that over RL slam H. It does more damage and scales better I find.


#484

rockets are to nemmy as unscaled vertical grabs are to spencer…the more you land the more damage youll output!
number of hits vs damage vs scaling nonsense…rockets are the shit!!!

in that regard i find ground bounce assists and certain wallbounce assists are great for getting massive damage with nemesis, sure he has his own toolset to get those things to happen on his own but why not throw out a rocket and assist call and get a free second rocket out of it?


#485

On Tron:
Gustaff Fire does scale combos badly, but I never use it in combos because of how j. H is now and I honestly can’t picture a situation where you have to use it in order to extend a combo.

In regards to assists, is it even possible to have both assists unavailable outside of a combo? I think you guys are making too big of a deal about what assists she needs to go into her supers. From my testing, only two characters on the Capcom side(Morrigan and Zero) have no assist that lets you transition from OTG to super. Sure, some might only let you get Lunchtime and not King Servbot, but it’s better than nothing. Only one assist(Strider’s Gram) is unrealistic in practice because of how strong one of his others(Vajra) is.

If you have X-Factor, you don’t need an assist to land a super in an extended combo. You can just end the combo before you typically call an assist and OTG and instead go straight into King Servbot and after the cinematic ends, you X-Factor and OTG. If you don’t have any other characters or X-Factor, you’re boned(or should I say Bonned?!). All you can really do is just shorten your combos and go for Lunchtime.

I personally don’t have any command grab setups. You should check out some of Rikir’s matches. He seems to land them a lot. You can mitigate some of its poor range if you kara with s. H. Also, keep her ground dash in mind in regards to the range of her command grab and her ground normals.

On Tron/Nem:
My litmus test for whether a character has good DHC synergy with Tron is whether you can land a King Servbot or not and Nemesis passes this test. Also if the DHC ends up near the corner, if you didn’t use up Tron’s assist with Nemesis on point, which is very likely, and if you have Nemesis on rocket assist and maybe even clocket, you can end the combo in the same fashion as the one I posted earlier in this thread. You can also land Nem’s punch super from Lunchtime and I think even from King Servbot. I don’t know if that’s noteworthy, though.

Both rocket and clocket allow you to transition from OTG to super for Tron.

Also, if you used Nem’s assist before you can OTG to super and have two bars, you can THC. After the bounce from the boot, you can beacon bomb and end it in the same fashion as the combo I listed earlier.

On Tron/Chris:
Chris passes my DHC test as well because you can land King Servbot from his grenade launcher super and I’m pretty sure his sweep one as well.

If you have Chris on Gunfire assist and it’s available in a combo, you can call his assist, OTG, H drill into Lunchtime. You can also use it to set up for j. H H drill finisher after the DHC into Tron as well, but it’s harder to get it to hit than Nem’s rocket.

On Bum’s Nem team:
I don’t understand the order, especially if he goes for THCs because Cap can’t OTG Shield Slash and THC. I could understand if Nem required Arthur’s Goddess Bracelet in order for the boot not to whiff, but he doesn’t.

What is Nem’s DHC problem? Is it the boot whiffing, damage, or something else entirely?

I also advise against putting Arthur in Gold Armor and tagging him out. Sure, it makes his assists better, but you’re risking a lot by doing so if your opponent’s character can OTG him after his armor breaks. You also have to burn a bar to get him back to his normal state if you don’t want to deal with the extra damage he receives in his underwear(I think he takes 40% more damage).

On Airtola’s team:
I also don’t understand the order of his team. Nem’s rocket super seems practically designed for a Gamma Crush DHC. Also, if he had Hulk on anti-air assist, he can probably play kind of lame with Nem. Sure, Nem doesn’t do as much damage as Hulk, but Hulk requires the corner to do the most damage and Nem’s rocket super is good at carrying the opponent closer to it. Also, the assist he has with Nem(rocket) is pretty much just for combo extension in the corner since he has Task’s arrows to cover his approach.

On Nem’s THC:
I actually investigated THCs a lot at the end of vanilla and early on in Ultimate. Unless you’re playing Wesker, the key ingredient I found for most THCs is a super that OTGs quickly and Nem’s fulfills that role. His THC is also unique in that it lasts a while(it seems a little shorter than Okami Shuffle), carries to the corner well, and produces a ground bounce even if you’ve used it up in a combo, which led me to…

On Haggar/Nem THC:
My brain immediately went to this combo yesterday after reading this discussion and it worked. I didn’t test it extensively, but from what little testing I’ve done, it seems to work best on larger characters and it seems to not work on smaller characters. Maybe, it does, but if that’s the case, the timing seems super strict. You can probably take shortcuts to mitigate this issue. The whole point of this was for it to be corner to corner and to produce a ground bounce for Haggar in case he already used his. The vibe I get is that smaller the character is, the less it becomes a true corner to corner combo. This combo could probably be optimized more, but here it goes.
j. Pipe, c. M S, air MMH Pipe, call Nem, c. H, Nem Rocket, f. H, whiff L Hoodlum Launcher, c. H, whiff f. H, c. H, whiff f. H, THC, dash to corner, Nem boot from THC, [c. M, H Hoodlum Launcher reset], [j. qcf. S, c. H, whiff f. H, c. H, whiff f. H], or [j. Pipe, c. H, whiff f. H, c. H, whiff f. H]
The damage I’m about to post is based on Haggar’s super whiffing, which it will if you’re not near the corner when you THC. It does ~751,800 before the Hoodlum Launcher reset. ~800,300 with the j. qcf. S finisher. ~786,800 with j. Pipe finisher. You can also probably finish the combo with S, air qcf. S, c. H x2, but I’m not good at landing air qcf. S raw in general. You can also probably extend the combo even more with assists if you don’t go the reset route. The closer to the opposing corner you are at the beginning of the combo, the easier it is to dash and finish it. I’m bad at wave dashing with Haggar so when it was truly a corner to corner combo, I had a hard time finishing it. The parts where character size cause problems is the Nem Rocket and the second c. H after the whiff L Hoodlum Launcher. The second c. H is not that big of a problem. It’s just nice to do because it pushes the character further towards the corner and thus losing some of its corner to corner potential if avoided. Nem Rocket is a bigger problem. You need the f. H to hit. Otherwise, the combo drops and the character recovers. That’s where the timing gets strict as character size diminishes. On Sentinel and Hulk, it’s easy. On Rocket Raccoon, it might be impossible. This problem could probably be fixed by just using an assist from another character instead. This part pushes characters closer to the corner as well so it becomes even less of a true corner to corner if it’s omitted. Keep in mind, I tested all this with just Haggar and Nem basically in a vacuum so make sure that whatever team you construct that the super from the other character in the THC doesn’t mess up Nem’s.

EDIT: You can totally do the Hoodlum Launcher reset with s. L with this combo. For some reason, I thought you couldn’t.
EDIT AGAIN: Alright, I’m an idiot. You can do a much simpler combo that from my testing works on everyone and is truly corner to corner.
j. Pipe, c. M S, air MMH PIpe S, dash, c. H, whiff f. H x whiff L Hoodlum Launcher, c. H, whiff f. H, THC
The one above probably build more bar and does more damage, but this one is more realistic. This is becoming the neverending post.

Man, this post is long as all hell, but at least, some of it is on topic this time.


#486

^ couple things:

Gustaff Fire is still used in and still starts certain combos (i.e fM anti-air, Fire CC, neutral jump airthrow, etc). Regardless of scaling, Tron’s damage mostly comes from being a self sustained meter hog. Sure there are situational oddities like jH, jMMH etc that will retain high meterless damage at minimum scaling, but those are in the far minority and almost never used.

imo King Servbot-XF-OTG is only good for happy birthdays, or if (god forbid) Tron’s anchor. works great tho.

I’ve never felt that Tron/Nem (a troll team I run) had good synergy, but it is fun to exploit the Beacon Bomb reset on foes that don’t know about it.

Airtola’s team comp actually makes perfect sense if he’s going for what I think he has it for (ground/air throw ToDs). Anyone here know which Hulk assist he runs?


#487

Few things to note.

Tron having both assists available is dumb. More realistically she’s going to have one, as a Heavy will need to spend an assist in some way trying to get in. And the reason everyone makes a big deal about it is because it IS a big deal, since the damage difference is huge with or without assists. People don’t like being shoe-horned into other options when bigger damage can be had without the reliance(keyword here) on assists. Nemesis, Hulk, Sentinel all have super damaging combos on their own, Even Haggar’s damage is only accented by his assists, even though it is a huge boost, there’s something base there. But Tron, not so much, she trades her damage for meter in the hopes of using it at length, but as we said earlier, we need assists for that. This is an uncompromising game, and we spend every resource trying to kill people. If we don’t, we damn well have a good excuse for it. But more importantly, we also need characters who can still fight with all their resources taken away. Hulk, Nemesis, Sentinel, even Haggar can all still do good damage in sub-optimal instances, whereas Tron falls flat.

Bum probably goes for THCs because while he could Shield slash, HCS, Goddess Bracelet, BWA, damage scaling is so harsh to Nemesis he wants to get it in while he can. A BWA at max scale does less than 100,000 damage

Airtola’s order is the way it is because his Hulk is VASTLY superior to his Nemesis, which is of course only saying that his Nemesis is pretty good while his Hulk is WOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. Plus, the extended combos he gets off of Rocket assist make Hulk kill pretty much anyone outright. In addition, yes Gamma Crush to BWA is a super powerful DHC and totally worth the order of the team. Why? Think about it for a second, Gamma Crush is the one Hyper Hulk lands consistently because it’s really the only damaging option after Gamma Charge. He turns random Gamma Charge attacks from ‘Ow!’ to ‘Dead’. And trust me, that move is one he will always land. So while the other order may have Nemesis better at adapting and Hulk as a better assist…he doesn’t need. He gets in fine, so might as well go for more damage.


#488

having to use one ClakeyD assist (and yes, Tron needs one) and one assist to get in is a big deal now? Isn’t this already like several characters? the ClakeyD assist often also works as lockdown while the assist to get in can usually be used to extend off throws…

obv you’re going to only play Tron on point, or second for the Gustaff CC. This isn’t Vanilla where folks would anchor her…

I’m pretty sure that hyper only works if they’re cornered?

(also this is why I play Drones. no need to use meter for combos after a cornerned foe got caught by a horizontal g-charge…)


#489

It’s a big deal when it’s almost mandatory. No, relying on assists isn’t bad in general, but being forced to use them is a sign that there’s an issue somewhere. Tron is a heavy that does no damage without assists and without meter(Which she does earn in her combos so that works just fin). At neutral, she’s a heavy that does little and needs multiple combos and optimal circumstance to be truly dangerous.

Uh, no, Gamma Charge into Gamma Crush works from anywhere.


#490

No, BUT it certainly helps. For a lot of improvised hitconfirms, I can make meh damage into good damage if I haven’t already used my otg. Also, as for Wesker/X-23/Shulk, all three can be used for unblockables as well, makes them feel like jumping, so you may even get some air throws off it. And Wesker has a good pickup for setting up resets. Shulk’s is great for that as well. X-23’s picks them up rather low, but I’ve been coming up with some really unconventional resets lately. I have a new corner reset that is at the end of Doublebounce bnb or a DR relaunch bnb that only is stopped by neutral techs from characters smaller than cap, and Jill and Zero can tech it forward. Problem is I still need to train it more often to figure out how to set it up. There is also some extension that comes with an otg assist, so though Nem doesn’t need an OTG assist by any means, he certainly gets benefits from it.

I’m stiff tryin’ to figure it out, but he has got a few resets with Cap to build meter, and he normally otgs into shield slash to kill a character, just the THC does a lot of damage, and who needs the shield slash to otg, when Nem does it for ya? And Nem’s role in the THC extends both Arthur and Cap starting it up, without a problem, and with either Cap or Arthur dead. In addition, both Cap and Arthur benefit greatly from the Nemesis assist, and can use it to extend combos quite a bit, as well as bringing their incoming crossup game up to par with other characters. That’s what I can figure out so far.

Nem’s DHC rockets connect off a ton of people, but the damage reduces like crazy. Like, to an absurd amount. He never seems to do more than 100k with his rockets, and not much more with his punches, which don’t setup nicely from everything. My team especially suffers from this. I would NEVER DHC from X-23 back into Nem unless I needed the extra 50k for one meter (she has to stop Rage Trigger during the more damaging part if she wants to DHC, it’s not too great).

Yup, I especially like that carries across the screen aspect. I found that for Nem’s boot to connect 100% of the time, the super/s going along with it gotta make some odd stun or knockdown state happen at the end. Or they have to last a while. C. Viper, Dormington, Arthur, Cap, Spencer, Thor, maybe even Iron Fist, there’s probably more, maybe Tron and Chris, but I am guessing now, based on how I’ve seen their supers work with different combinations.

I keep trying Nem and Haggar, but I find I am not huge on the synergy, despite Haggar having great combos for pretty much every assist. My judgment for who works on a Haggar team is if I can relaunch from a single dropkick otg, and if I do that early, corner-to-corner becomes significantly easier. Nem’s assist is nothing too amazing for Haggsy, and Haggar’s get off me assist is really only great for making whiffed command throws safe against larger chars, because Nem has a lot of getoffme tools as it is. My favorite Haggar synergy is Ryu, Cap, and Skrull, but these are not the usual choices, so on a Haggar team, it’s really who you want to synergize, and you’ll find a way. He’s got just way too many tools :smiley:


#491

Also, I swear that this was corner, seeing as when my friends mistakenly go Charge to Crush out of the corner, I punish the crap out of it.


#492

Why do people think Charge to Crush is corner only? Charge puts people in the perfect position for a crush, then DHC to Nemesis (wait a second after final hit for proper positioning) and bam, 687,000 damage off Gamma Charge. Granted, it costs two meters, but it still hurts like hell.


#493

Huh, then my friends have crappy timing, because they miss Crush so much, they only do so when they thought it was corner. Gotta tell Hulks I know to step up their game. Though, that’s less important. I’m back home, which means training mode is back, and all my friends here main Cap, Akuma, and Iron Man, not all on the same teams. So the Hulk matchup, though one of my favs, is less important to me.


#494

I have alot of question for nemesis players and i was going to make a nemesis Q & A thread, but choose not to. Anyways i have 12 teams with nemesis on it, and i wanted input from the community on my teams :3

teams

Spoiler

[spoiler=team 1-6]1.) Tron, Haggar, Nemesis
2.) Nemesis, Vergil, Wesker
3.) Phoenix Wright, Nemesis, Frank
4.) FireBrand, Felicia, Nemesis
5.) Nemesis, Trish, Joe
6.) Arthur, Ryu, Nemesis[/details]

team 7-12

[details=Spoiler]7.) Nemesis, Capt. America, Modok
8.) Akuma, Nemesis, Doom
9.) Sentinal, C.viper, Nemesis
10.) Nemesis, She-hulk, Chun-li
11.) Spencer, Nemesis, Nova
12.) R.R. , Spiderman, Nemesis[/details]

I have many questions to ask, but i am just going to ask 3 basic questions right now.

  1. When is the best to do Nemesis DpHc?
  2. Does Nemesis make a better Anchor or point character?
  3. How does one connect Nemesis Tiger-Knee Motion OTG in a combo.

Thanks for reading :smiley:


#495

I assume DPHC is his Biohazard Rush, the punching super. The only good time to use it is either if A) you can land it during combos, or B) if you have a grab super to tag out to. It’ so unsafe and Rocket Hyper is usually much more applicable in a later combo and frankly, it’s a much better combo ender for it’s DHC purposes in most cases.

Yeah…ummm…despite some recent interests in anchor Nemesis, you’re gonna want to put him on first or second. Go back a few pages to learn more, but he doesn’t get a significant speed boost in X-Factor, gets lamed out super hard, can’t chase down people well, and the damage boost in X-Factor isn’t that big either as his resets can usually get the kill as needed without it. Far as I’m concerned, he’s still horrid on anchor. For a good team composition guide with him on point, I recommend reading this post I made a while ago: “Nem-Assists”: The Nemesis Teambuilding/Assists Thread

If you mean as a combo ender, you’re in perfect range to do so after smacking them down after an air combo in mid screen. If you want to extend the combo with it…don’t. It’s not worth the effort. The rocket shoots them back too far and Nemesis recovers too slow. Only select assist can nail combos afterwards, but in order to do that, it needs to be a straight LMHSMMHS combo and it does less damage and scales more. Stick with combos that wind up using both QCF+L and DP+M.