Netcode improvements?


#1

How much does a person’s bandwidth (mbps) affect online experiences with ssf4 and other games?

I’m going to change plans with my ISP so I was wondering.


#2

Fighting games are notoriously strict in regards to online connection. Even the slightest latency can affect your ability to perform combos and follow strategies.

If you want to avoid hair-wrenching frustration and unfair losses, seek out the best ISP possible. However, there is honestly no replacement for offline in regards to reliable and balanced gameplay.


#3

One thing you could also consider, which they usually make clear for FPSs and other games, try opening your NAT so that your console (unless you’re a PC) doesn’t have to go through firewall restrictions to speed up gameplay.

Also, SSF4’s online is actually really good (though not perfect), whereas MvC 3 is very laggy even at its best times. I’ve never really had a laggy match save once or twice on SSF4, but I’ve never had a match on MvC 3 where lag didn’t exist.


#4

Latency makes far more of an impact than bandwidth.


#5

What determines latency?


#6

A number of things, primarily the distance the signal has to travel to get to its destination. Having more bandwidth does help latency to some degree since you’re less likely to choke your network, and having a wired connection to your console will help immensely. If it’s an option you’re considering, don’t get a satellite or 3G/4G-based internet connection if you want to avoid latency - in the case of satellite, the signal actually has to go all the way up into space and back, leading to 500+ms ping times at best (1 frame is ~16.67ms).


#7

I actually tested this out with bandwidth monitoring software a couple years ago. I forgot the exact results, but I think SF4 used somewhere in the neighborhood of 10kb/s on average. I have the cheapest DSL plan that ATT offers and online games in general never come close to capping my upload rate, let alone my download rate.


#8

Don’t you guys read on what good net code is?

mvc3 uses the exact same net code sf4 does. There was an interview when the game dropped talking about the ssf4 team built the mvc3 net code. ** So when you say mvc3 sucks but ssf4 is really good, its a HUGE contradiction.** The reason mvc3 sucks online more than sf4 is because the game is faster and its much easier to identify the faults with the net code. All though sf4 is much slower the problems aren’t quite as amplified but the same EXACT problems are still present.

ssf4, mvc3, t6, tvc all have one thing in common, they used input delay based net code. What that means is that when you hit a buttons, its delayed x amount of frames based on your connection to the opponent. The further they are, they more it lags but even on close connections, the game is certainly lagging 1-3 frames and I’m talking about Japanese playing distances. Here in America, the average connection probably lags between 6-15 frames which is pretty fucking high. Daigo himself even talked about how shitty sf4 online is here in the USA.

we don’t use TV’s @ any big tournament that involve 1frame of input delay, so why is it that when people talk about sf4 online, its the best thing ever when the input delay can reach 10+frames in here in the USA?

people buying sf4 and praising the net code are actually doing a disservice to the entire fighting game community. The longer you praise that POS they keep giving us and not asking for GGPO, the longer we will have to deal with horribly laggy net code from 1999.

in retrospec to every net code out there, sf4 is bottom tier @ best. Counter strike 1.6 from 2001 is 100x better online than sf4 is in 2011.


even if you switch ISP, it could make a smige of difference. If you’re playing on DSL, wireless or sharing a connection, those things can lag you down pretty bad. The infrastructure to run good net code is already here in the USA. The best thing you can do is talk to the developers of the big fighting games, capcom
amco, and beg them to implement GGPO.


#9

so cable internet is preferable for fighting games on netplay?


#10

FiOS is what you would ideally want.

But even if you have FiOS, have it installed to the desk, and your network configuration is perfect - if the other guy’s playing on $20/mo DSL you’re still going to feel it. Nothing you do short of moving to Japan is going to make it stop lagging.

Japan doesn’t just have the advantage in that they live closer to each other (you still see complaints of lag from NA players who live next door to each other), they have the advantage in that they’ve completely rewired the country post-WW2 (their DSL is faster than our cable, that’s how efficient it is) and that their government has seriously gotten behind fiber-optic networks. 50MBps FiOS there costs $20 to install and $60/mo. 50MBps FiOS here costs $800 to install and $140/mo.

Companies here are mostly afraid of giving us better internet because they think it will cannibalize TV (and notice that most cable companies also sell TV).

GGPO can’t get rid of the lag, but it is much better at masking it than existing netcodes.


#11

Funny, in my earlier statement I didn’t mention either of the words “Net” or “Code”, you’re putting words in my mouth. I know it doesn’t use GGPO, believe me, I’ve been hearing a lot of veterans belly ache about it, and I don’t know how many times I’ve heard or read about the differences. I meant the general experience of SSF4 to MvC3. I want GGPO to be used as much as the old vets do, but that doesn’t change how the online is now.

The current netcode handles SSF4 fine IMO, but it wasn’t built to handle the amount of information transferred on MvC 3, which is unarguably higher, hence the lag. I made no false or contradictory statement, and at no time did I use the words “Net Code” in my first post. I mentioned opening the NAT, and the state of online play at the time, and nothing else. You want GGPO, great! Glad for you, but don’t put words in my mouth.


#12

Go for a fibre based account with the lowest latency. If they have a trial account choose that and test your latency using something like http://pingtest.net/.

Also keep in mind though that companies may have different agreements with each other, and that may affect how your connection gets routed, which in turn can affect your latency.

eg. If ISP A has and agreement with ISP B to provide connections over a network Backbone X (which is known to be very fast), then theoretically if you’re with ISP A should have a very good connection with anyone else who has an account with ISP A or B. However, there’s no guarantee that they will use the same routing if you’re with trying to connect to someone on a different ISP. They might decide to route through a different state/country entirely to save costs or whatever.

ISP sales consultants aren’t usually very clued up about these kinds of technical details, so sometimes it’s better just to get a rough idea from people in your area that play the games you’re interested in.


#13

yea make sure you’re directly wired into your main internet source and make sure no one else is using it for anything while you’re playing if its possible. Even small shit like surfing the internet forces hiccups while playing.

and I definitely would NOT play on wireless\DSL. I’ve had HUGE problems with people playing on that shit.

yea, don’t listen to this guy about the quality aspects of net code. Anyone who thinks sf4 is fine in the USA doesn’t really know what a good connection is.


#14

I bet I know better than you, but you’re probably still using dial up aren’t you?


#15

the fuck you do lol, you think sf4 online is good here in the USA when Daigo has even mentioned how horrible it was compared to Japan. You don’t have a leg to stand on @ this point.

my ISP gives me 20mbps dl-ed and 7-8 mpbs up which is roughly 4x faster than USA average and sf4 STILL sucked online… SF4 doesn’t work here @ all since the distances are so huge combined with FORCED input delay which changes on the whim. Could be 5 frames for half the match then it goes to 15 for the last half. and you think inconsistent FORCED input delay makes a game good online? fuck out of here with that garbage.

I’ve been playing fighters online since 1999. I’ve seen the evolution and devolution of the online fighting game scene first hand. I doubt you have that much experience. On top of my decade +experience with fighters online, I’ve also been playing on GGPO since day 1 which is about 4 years this year.


#16

Lag in FPS games is FAR different from lag in fighting games. Games like CS and all the GoldSrc/Source Engine games use lag compensation, hence why when you watch demos shots may look off, etc.

Also most FPS’s are playable on 100ms of lag, you won’t be able to use projectiles effectively but it’s still VERY playable with hitscan on a decent interp.

Fighting games are a frame by frame deal, FPS is not.


#17

Maybe you’ve just sucked since 1999. PS. If you take Daigo as the end all say all opinion, you need to go back to school.


#18

hahahaha, maybe you should ask around before you start making outlandish claims like I suck or something.

I used the Daigo reference because he’s one of the few people to play in Japan\USA online. He has the experience to compare both realistically and he’s not the only good player to talk about how bad the online is for the game. Seems like to me, only scrubs say the game is good online.

While I have given point after point as to why you’re wrong, you keep attacking me with your bobo attitude. Do some research, figure out why input lag sucks which shouldn’t be that hard then come talk to me.


#19

That’s funny considering you attacked me first. And if 1 frame difference is enough to make you rage quit, I would say you do have a problem.

As for Daigo, he works in a nursing home, so when he gets a degree in Electrical Engineering or Telecommunications, then I’ll take his opinion on the current state of internet latency more seriously.

And while you have to right to disagree with my opinion of the state of SSF4’s online component, you have no right to call me stupid for believing other than you. Other people have opinions, you may have forgotten that, and they are just as valid as yours.

So let’s get a few things clear.

  1. I never said the netcode was perfect. I made a statement as to my perception to the state of online experience. I feel that between US players I have a very well played experience, and have little relative data loss, for SF4 anyway. I am aware that the netcode was optimize around SSF4 and that when used for MvC 3, it couldn’t such a large transfer of data as easily due to the different mechanics. This presents even at best, and by my best perception mind you, that I’ve never had anything without a large amount of lag. It doesn’t make the game unplayable, but I don’t enjoy it online as much as SSF4.

  2. I’m quite eager to try SF3 3s Online because of the GGPO implamentation, and am fairly excited to see what it’s capable of. I’ve never been able to afford a lot growing up, but now that I’ve graduated college, and can afford amenities like all these various fighting games, a really good HD setup, a fairly priced internet package, fight sticks, etc., I intend to finally try and play on a higher level. Since I’ve been so late to the GGPO scene, I’ve never given it a try. However, I’ve heard that even as good as it is, it has it’s problems too. Plus, Seth Killian has stated numerous times how it’s not as simple as copy and paste GGPO into the 2.5d engine fighters.

  3. Point after point you’ve defended your views, but point after point you’ve made it a clear point to insult me as well, and I don’t stand by a let others debase me simply because they think they have to right to.

  4. I don’t play Online outside of the country right now. I know exactly how bad international play is, and until the US decides to upgrade its Fibre Optic network, and get out of 16th place in the world rank of internet speed, I probably won’t be. The problem of international play is attributed to more than one root cause, it’s not entirely the net code’s fault, but it does have room for improvement.

I also see that by this point, I suppose the name calling and insulting isn’t called for, so I will apologize. I hope you’ll extend the courtesy of debating my opinions without trying to insult me further.


#20

damnnnnn

someone rode the short bus to school cause that post was retarded.

You’ve done more harm to yourself than I could ever do to you. Good stuff, you’ve discredited yourself here pretty convincingly. Its apparent that you don’t have the slightest clue about what good net code is.