New Ken Mix-Ups!

ken

#1

Hi everyone,

I have been a silent member of this community for ages now and finally have summed up the courage to officially register and start contributing to these forums.

I am a HUGE Ken fan and will rarely touch any other character and it has been this way since Street Fighter 2 on the SNES.

Now I am well aware that this probably means I will never go pro, but who cares…

Anywho,

I’m glad to say that after months of dipping my toe into the Ken Forum on and off, it is finally starting to sound a bit more intelligent as all the scrubby kids start to lose interest in the game or move onto more scrubby characters (read, Sagat ;)). The threads on Frame Data are great and I really enjoyed reading the SF4 Dash ideas too. But now it is my turn to try to say something useful!!

So, not wanting to risk being told I’m an idiot, I have spent quite a while trying to find some new Mix-Ups for Ken that wont get me laughed out of the forum.

This all started when I started paying real close attention to some of Dr Chaos’s matches and I noticed how he uses an IMMEDIATE jump-in after a f.SRK that has connected (not anti-air, i.e after his cr.lk, cr.lp, f.SRK).

I spent a couple of hours in training with the AI using quick stand and realised how the distance they fall from you after the f.SRK is almost a perfect ambiguous cross-up distance. If you immediately jump after the SRK, the timing is as damned close to safe jumping as you could ask for without being totally unfair to the other character too!!

So I started using this technique EVERY time I landed a f.SRK with what I can only describe as awesome levels of success.

Looking at this situation again, I came to the conclusion that this “perfect” distance and “perfect” timing for the ambig cross-up after the f.SRK was not just a lucky coincidence. I felt that it was engineered that way.

And so, with this in mind I decided to see if they had engineered any other little gems that we Ken players had yet to discover that we could utilise to make our rush down games better and take Ken up a tier notch.

I’ve come up with a few…

I’m not talking rushdown awesomeness on the level of say, a skilled Rufus, but I hope that some of what I’m about to explain could start to be used more often. As it is, I haven’t seen any of my mix-ups used by any “Pro” Kens, so I am assuming that either I’ve had an epiphany or I may get shot down in flames very soon, so please put me right if I am wasting people’s time!!!

Mix-up 1:

Instaed of using cr.lk, cr.lp - f.srk USE cr.lk, cr.lp - jab.srk.

Does 20 less damage but…

If this combo is then followed by an IMMEDIATE jump in, it will always land NON cross up. Sometimes this is enough to throw your opponent out of sync and you’ll land the regular jump attack as they try to walk underneath you for the throw or to block a cross-up.

Also, if you do an IMMEDIATE jump but then just empty jump from this distance it will give you the perfect timing for a safe jump, i.e, even Ryu will whiff his reversal SRK.

Final mix-up from this set-up is to perform an ex-tatsu during your IMMEDIATE jump-in to score the cross-up that they thought you couldn’t reach!!

All these mix-ups also work from st.rh, jab.srk

Mix-up 2:

Instead of IMMEDIATE jump in after a f.srk USE an immediate fake kick - f.rh (hold).

Now this is starting to become a favourite of mine!

The beauty of this technique is that it puts immediate pressure/guess work/mind games back onto the opponent.

If you time the fake kick on the first frame possible after the f.srk, you will come out of the fake kick with what seems like the tiniest amount of frame advantage (guesstimate here). This means the opponent has very little time to decide what to do. Is it the true overhead? Shall I block it? Shall I reversal it? Shall I throw? Shall I mash a jab??

Here’s the good news. As Ken, follow the fake kick with an OST. Simple. If the opponent went for the reversal, it seems very easy to block it and punish. If the opponent tries to throw, you will tech it. If the oppponent tried to mash a jab, you will beat theirs out and you can hit confirm into another BnB combo. Best of all, if they were sold by the fake kick, they will stand up and you will land your cr.lk instead of attempting the throw and again, you can punish, preferably with a tatsu combo or another BnB f.srk ender!!

In simple terms, this mix-up is very simialr to the mind games you can play at the end of an ex tatsu combo but with the added bonus of the threat of an overhead to block and the speed at which the opponent has to decide! You are literaaly all over them straight after your last combo!

It makes me feel like Rufus when i start throwing this mix-up at them!!!

The twist on this mix-up is that once you have them trained with this routine, pause for 2 frames after the first f.srk and throw the overhead kick instead. It comes out slightly quicker than the fake kick, so you need to pause to avoid whiffing. The meatier you can land it, the better. They will simply not have enough time to differentiate the fake from the true kick in time to make an educated decision and will most likely eat the overhead very regularly.

I honestly feel that these mix-ups along with some others I’ll post later, really start to turn Ken into more of the rushdown monster we wnat him to be. Constant pressure from more than just the threat of the ambiguous cross-up game that many characters can just brush off.

I’d certainly love to hear from some of you guys who have had real competitive experience (Dr Chaos, Magneto etc), let me know what you think. If the ex tatsu is one of Kens best moves, then I would like to think that this little set-up creates almost exactly the same guessing game but with the OH threat as well!!

Anyway, this post is very long and I have to get to work. I have 5 or 6 more variants to talk about that will really allow you to apply almost constant pressure to a quick rising opponent.

But I’ll let you guys discuss these 2 and I’ll hop back on later to see the feedback as I’m off to work now!!

Go easy on me guys, I’m new to this…

Peace out!!

G

Note- I think I am correct in saying that there is a “frame window” on quick rising. i.e, you have a few frames of opportunity in which to perform your quick rise tech and so none of these mix-ups can be frame perfect all the time as it will depend on how effectively the opponent performs their quick rise.

But so far, with my testing, the variations have been very reliable in creating ambiguous blocking situations and we all know that Ken only needs 1 or 2 opportunities to punish and we can take a match.

Bye!!


#2

Mix 1 - I use this SOMETIMES. The big downside is that you may be out of range for j.SRK and will totally whiff and eat a big fat combo. This is especially true if you use the longer hit confirm of c.lk c.lp c.lp f.srk. If you replace that f.srk with lp.srk you will likely whiff because of the lack of range.

Mix 2 - yeah I have used that as an alt to step kicks.


#3

To Fury,

Cheers for the feedback.

To Crimson,

I rarely extend my chain to cr.lk, cr.lp, cr.lp - f.srk. I can usually react to the hit confirm just off the 2 attacks.

Once I commit to that second low punch, I normally make it a standing one (if they are stood up obviously) then low forward into tatsu.

If they aren’t stood up, I’ll throw the second cr.lp, l.fw and either risk a fireball or just go straight back to footsies OR I’ll substitute a focus attack or overhead for the low forward, so range on the l.srk has never been a problem.

I tend to use this mix up as a punish and go for st.rh, l.srk anyway.

I honestly think that Ken’s fake kick and overhead kick are not used enough and since discovering that their timing works awesomely straight after the fierce srk I am definitely going to be abusing them as much as I can now.

My aim is to try and develop some sort of strategy whereby the opponent is completely bombarded with decision making rather like a Rufus rushdown!!

Mix-up 3:

This one is probably a bit more well known.

After punishing with st.rh, EX srk

IMMEDIATE jump will give you a normal jump in that is much harder to walk under, but it is not as safe as the IMMEDIATE jump in from a normal f.srk as the opponent has slightly longer to get up and thus more time to hit the reversal. The only main advantage is that it is much more likely to have to be blocked correctly from the front. (This is obviously character dependant and I’m sure Vega can still upset this, dammit. Need to test this a bit more).

IMMEDIATE jump in then low kick air tatsu for a nasty and fairly well disguised ambiguous cross-up.

IMMEDIATE jump in and air ex tatsu for the guarunteed crossup that sometimes hits twice and is very easy to combo off of.

IMMEDIATE overhead kick with f.rh for a meaty overhead.

IMMEDIATE fake kick to OST. This one is slightly more risky and your timing has to be absolutely spot on, but if done correctly you CAN still perform the fake kick and still have time to block a reversal attempt. Going for the cr.lk is more likely to trade than win outright as with the f.srk version.

Mix-up 4:

Now I’ve only just started toying with this one so bear with me as things might be presumptions and guess work here…

j.rh, f.mk

and…

Meaty f.mk on wake-up.

Now at first glance, these seem like no brainers so I will have a go at explaining my reasoning.

j.rh, f.mk

Now you might not know this but jumping rh WILL combo into Ken’s step kick.

This isn’t necessarily a high damage combo and you would have to be sure that you were going to land the jumping kick as you would NOT want to be throwing out a step kick at point blank range and have it get blocked.

No, the logic behind it is the same as all of Ken’s best mind game set-ups. If you land the j.rh and combo into the step kick, you will now basically have your character overlapping their character, with them stuck in hit stun and you with +2 frame advantage (it may be +1, I can’t remember). There will be a HUGE incentive for your opponent to try to throw out some kind of attack because you are SO CLOSE TO THEM and it seems that even the savvy player who knows that after being hit by the step kick they are at a frame disadvantage can be tempted to try something silly.

This is the perfect opportunity to throw out a f.srk FADC to full ultra. Or even straight into a BnB hit confirm combo and start the process again.

Meaty f.mk on wake-up.

Now this is slightly more risky than the first, but you can go some way to negating the frame disadvantage on block with your step kick by landing it as late as possible on a rising opponent.

Depending on how much of a lead you have or how desperate you are, you can fire off a meaty f.mk at very close range and still have time to block reversal attempts that would normally have tagged you during your recovery. This is especially satisfying one focus attack abusers!!

I am still testing the finer points of that last one so bear with me and help me test it out!

Anyway,

I think that is enough food for thought, please share your comments and be nice people!!

Peace.


#4

isn’t a meaty f+MK or meaty f+HK on wake wake up just asking for a reversal? (especially f+HK)


#5

If I go for a meaty, I usually make it c.forward or c.short… especially since they make Balrog’s headbutt whiff. :smiley:


#6

If only the mix ups were as new as his join date.

LEWLPEWL

I’ll let Chaos decide if he wants to reveal the l33t 7 (not 5) way mix ups :smokin:


#7

Hey don’t bash O: (Lol jk)

There pretty nice actually. Some things might be usefull for me for example.


#8

Don’t mind MagMan, G77. You’ll probably get some shit for you 09 join date. :stuck_out_tongue: Once 2010 comes around, you’ll see he’s actually a pretty cool dood. Poor 2010 joiners…


#9

In general, I find that the f.mk comes out so quick that I get reversed less doing that than I do walking up to them and trying to do cr.forward or cr.short. The fact that you can start it up outside of reversal range tends to put them off.

I had rarely used f.hk on wake-up because you are right, it does suggest a reversal AND it has very few active frames with which to play with.

It’s main use (as I stated earlier on) is to mess with your opponents mind after you have laid the ground work with the fake kick. You WANT them to attempt those reversals as you step in, then you block, OST and punish it. THEN, when they start to hesitate with the reversal, you whip in the full overhead. Although it only hits once, it does a lot of damage (140 dmg if I remember correctly).

Basically, the “threat” of the overhead on wake-up is what makes the overhead effective and the fact that if you throw that fake kick AS SOON AS YOU LAND from your f.srk, you don’t have to worry about getting the timing right through judgement.

So to summarise:

The precise distance and timing offerred to you after landing each of Ken’s Dragon Punches is ideal for doing an IMMEDIATE attack after it (holding up on the stick to initiate a jump in during your recovery from the SRK for example).

Here is a list of all the mix-ups I can think of that Ken can have at his disposal.

After a f.srk ender:

  1. Immediate jump in with medium kick for ambiguous cross-up
  2. Immediate jump in with short kick for ambiguous cross-up / normal jump in
  3. Immediate Fake Kick followed by OST, Throw, Low short, f.srk FADC etc.
  4. 2 frame pause followed by f.rh Overhead kick
  5. Immediate jump in with short kick air tatsu for cross up
  6. Immediate jump in with ex air tatsu for cross-up
  7. Immediate jump in empty jump, into cr.lk hit confirm combo or throw attempt

After a l.srk ender

  1. Immediate jump in with heavy kick for definite normal jump in
  2. Immediate jump in with ex tatsu for definite cross up
  3. Immediate jump in empty jump for safe jump (cannot be reversed on landing).
  4. Immediate Fake Kick followed by OST, Throw, Low short, f.srk FADC etc.
  5. Pause followed by f.rh Overhead Kick

After an EX srk ender

  1. Immediate jump in with Heavy or Medium kick for ambiguous normal jump in
  2. Immediate jump in with short kick air tatsu for ambiguous cross up
  3. Immediate jump in with ex air tatsu for definite cross up
  4. Immediate Fake Kick followed by OST, Throw, Low short, f.srk FADC etc. (Timing must be spot on to avoid punishment on this one)
  5. “Almost” Immediate f.rh Overhead Kick

I wont list the tatsu setups as most people are fully aware of them as they are of the usual basic mixups that every character has.

These are Ken specific because his srk’s make the timing of these otherwise tricky setups much easier for Ken.

Again, what do you guys think?

G.


#10

I’ve been a member of many forums for many years, I am well accustomed to the ease in which insults can be thrown from the other side of the world with little or no repurcussion to the insulter. 'Tis the easy thing to do, but it is water off a duck’s back my friend.

I did state that I was ready for constructive feedback and that I was expecting someone better than myself to point out my errors as I am sure I don’t put in anywhere near the hours that some of these pros must commit to this game.

Unfortunately, at the moment MagMan’s constructive criticism is merely a cryptical tease and not a very useful one.

PS.

Although I joined in 09, I’ve been playing Street Fighter since I was 12. I just didn’t care to write about it back then, nor did I see any real reason to join here until lately.

Thanks for making my first dip into these forums a mainly pleasant one people.

I am now 31. Street Fighter nut for 19 years…

Sad isn’t it?


#11

Mags just teasing. You got some good stuff going on I think… :wink:

-Another mix up with sagat specifically is if your close you can c.short c.jab strong shoryu and that will allow you to cross him up even if they quick get up. You will land behind them, unlike fierce shoryu which always puts you in front of sagat if he does a quick get up. Found that out awhile back.


#12

Actually pretty well thought out, certainly hitting a jump-in to f+mk is something that will throw players off their games as it’s a situation they don’t expect to be in after eating a jump-in and it unfolds fast enough that they won’t have time to think about their options.

FWIW after st.hk xx ex.srk you can dash forward and meaty cr.short.

In your first post you talked about hp.srk to crossups. It’s worth noting that this is character dependent.


#13

Can you dash forward and meaty cr.short after a fierce shoryuken?I mean im doing this from the beginning and i tought cr.short was a meaty lol

btw good topic


#14

This is true, plus the fact that there is that window of a few frames in which to tech the quick stand which makes the ambiguity a bit scewed one way or another for each character.

If I am playing against a character who tends to always quick stand and block the normal jump in, I will try to do my immediate jump in but swing the stick from forwards to up just as I land. When I get the timing right, this gives me like, 2 extra frames of forward movement and is sometimes enough to switch the jump in to the cross-up and BAM, I get a free combo. To the untrained eye it looked like I just did the same instant jump as usual.

Dr Chaos! Hello!! I love watching your matches man, do you have some more to upload? I’ve watched your matches against Marn WAY to many times and I’d love for you yo upload some more!

With regards to the dash in and meaty short, if my calculations are correct and Ken has enough time to do the EX srk, then fake kick, then OST and possibly beat out a normal attempt from the rising character, is this not the better option as it gives your opponent more to think about i.e, having to block an overhead? I was struggling to set it up properly in training so I am not 100% sure you have time to poke out the cr.sh. I KNOW for certain that you have time to block the reversal attempt though. I guess either way, it is ANOTHER option and another mix-up to add to the list.

While you’re here, can you decipher MagMans cryptic clue and explain your “7 option” set up?

It almost sounds mystical :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks for the feedback guys, I hope that there is some more hidden stuff to come!

G.


#15

Also, you can cross-up Sagat using an IMMEDIATE jump in and either the short or EX air Tatsu right?

That move was one of the first moves that I noticed Dr Chaos do, that made me think about the whole thing in the first place. I believe you pulled it off a few times against CapMaster was it?

Only downside to that tactic is that they can duck it. Shame the ex version doesn’t hit low like Ryu’s ex tatsu. Maybe that could be a tweak I should suggest in the SF4 Dash thread. Make Ken’s EX Tatsu and Air EX Tatsu hit crouching opponents!!!

Hmmmm…

G.


#16

Haven’t read the Ken forum in a while. Nice stuff man :tup:


#17

Had some fun on XBL tonight and tried out this one:

Landed a BnB j.mk, cr.lk, cr.lp, f.srk - Immediate Fake Kick into neutral jump.

From there I had all the usual options available;

j.mk into block string / BnB combo
empty jump into throw / cr.lk tatsu setup
j.mk into tick throw / kara throw
etc, etc…

This was a great little mix-up as I was training people to be wary after the Fake Kick through punishment of any reversal attempts and I had even hit them a few times with the full overhead as well so they were totally frozen to the spot on wake-up from the f.srk.

So what started to happen was that they were deliberately slow rising now and again to throw off the timing. This is all good for me as it meant I had plenty of opportunities to do whatever I wanted, but on the occassions where I had already committed to the Fake Kick, it was annoying. So adding the neutral jump on the end really put them back on their toes again.

What do you guys think so far?

G


#18

yep, your theory fighter skills are strong! my main… chun has some things exactly like this that are a little too “perfect” so to speak to be random (such as all the nasty shit she can do after a neutral throw). keep it up with ken dude!

even though i havent tested any of these and so, am talking out of my ass… it really looks like you’ve found some great ken shit there! which is awesome! this game is so deep that i really felt that there was some latent power in ken… but unfortunately all my theory fighter time is spent on MY FAVORITE character , chun.

-dime


#19

-Unfortunately all my great gdlk matches never seem to be recorded lol. I would have a ton especially with me and Arturo, even though he owns me :sad:

-I think it does just depends on height and the arc of it, I’m not 100% sure though. But if you notice sometimes when you hit someone with ex tatsu and they block it, then on the 2nd or 3rd rotation it hits, its cause they tried to crouch block.

-I think MagMan is referring to this post. LoL @ the 7 option set up :looney:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7136854&postcount=42


#20

At around 1:00 or so (too lazy to double check), Yipes uses the f+RH fake kick after Shoryu. Too bad the opponent didn’t quick stand. :stuck_out_tongue: