New to ST, tell me about throws


#1

I’ve been playing this game a bit on GGPO, and it’s pretty fun (hard game). I’m trying to get more into it and learn more about it. I don’t understand exactly how the throwing works. It seems like, even when I’m the one setting up the throw and I know what I’m going to do, I get thrown, or a kick or something comes out when I’m trying to throw. What is the timing/spacing or whatever else I need to know about this? I’m used to the SF4/SF3 throwing, so it’s taken some getting used to. Thanks guys.


#2

Well, let’s start simple; a lot of the basics depend on the character you’re playing. Some characters only have throws with specific buttons, others have multiple buttons that activate multiple throws. Also the range depends entirely on the character you’re playing. Some characters have much longer throw ranges than others.

If two players attempt to throw at the same time (assuming they’re both in range), the player who inputs the command first gets the throw (if the throws are input on the exact same frame, I believe the game determines randomly). If the other player’s throw command is entered within 13 frames of the initial throw command, then the throw is teched, or softened, so the damage is reduced (this doesn’t apply to grabs).

Generally speaking, if you know that a throw is coming, and you attempt to counter throw, if your command is inputted sooner, while still within eligible circumstances, you will throw instead of your opponent. This sounds like what’s happening to you in your first problem, but from the other end. The other player probably recognizes a throw coming, and attempts a counter-throw–and since they’re probably more experienced with Super Turbo, they have a better grasp of the timing, and are able to beat you to it the majority of the time.

The problem you’re experiencing with normals coming out is probably a problem of range, since if you’re out of throw range, it will just come out as a normal.


#3

In terms of how inputs work for normal throws, if you’re holding right or left within range of your opponent (different every character) and you press one of your character’s throw buttons, the game will option-select for you (situationally chooses which action your character will perform, when your inputs could be interpreted as two or more different commands) based on whether or not it’s possible to throw your opponent at that time. If your opponent is throwable at that moment (ie. not airborne or invincible or in blockstun or hitstun), you will throw him. If your opponent is not throwable at that moment, you will get the corresponding standing normal or command normal.

Each character has between one and four throw buttons: any or all of MP, MK, HP, and HK. These are their attack buttons that can be used to perform a throw. Just off the top of my head, I thiiink that HP works for every character but I’m not sure.

In ST, new version characters (not the old versions) can “tech soften” throws (you take less damage, no knockdown) by entering their own throw command on the first 13 frames (just barely under a quarter of a second) of their being thrown. You can actually use ANY of the four possible throw buttons to soften a throw, even if your character can’t actually do a throw of their own with that button. Note that you cannot “tech break” throws in SF2 the way that you do in SF3 and SF4 (that double pushback situation reset clash type thing).

For details on how throws work in terms of game engine mechanics, check out this thread. It was actually made for HDR but all the same stuff applies to vanilla ST.

Hope that helps! :smile:


#4

Here is a throw range chart that is easier to parse than the raw T.Akiba data:

http://grandmasterchallenge.blogspot.com/2009/03/throw-superiority_01.html


#5

that thread on throws about hdr really helped, thanks guys. i just need more practice now :wink:


#6

I’m not sure if this is completely relevant, but its better than starting a new thread.:sweat:

Hey, I’m posting to ask for some help and/or pointers on playing ST.

The biggest issue I am having thus far is dealing with tick throws and throw setups. Whenever I fight Hawk, Gief, and Honda, I have so much trouble trying to fight against their throws. I know I can beat throws with reversals, but sometimes I swear the throw is being comboed, but I know this isn’t true, the real issue here is that I never see anything but the very simple set ups coming. (jump in knee to throw, or standing short to throw.) Cross up set ups are tough to deal with too. I was curious, is there any kind of method to teaching one’s self how to appropriatly react? My most common reactions are to mash throw which never seems to work, and reversal DP, which only sees successful use when I can see the throw coming, and even then, I can be baited and swept just to repeat the process. Grapplers are a huge pain for me, so any suggestions would help very much.

Another issue I have is Honda, yes one character, Honda. I generally have trouble with 4 characters: Gief, Honda, Blanka, and Boxer, but I am absolutely the worst with any Honda match-up, whether or not the match-up is allegedly “in my favor.” Are there any guidelines for basic engagements with Honda? Character specific stuff may be helpful, but I’m sure there’s a simple reason as to why this fight sucks for me.

Last, is the issue of effective combos, I am only capable of the most simple combos in this game, such as jump in HK, crouching MK, Shakunetsu w/ Ryu, or something along those lines. Are the simple attacks effective enough to rely on? I can’t see myself pulling off silly 8+ hit combos given my hand speed.

Other than that, some pointers on using pokes would be nice.

If it matters much, I mostly use Ryu, Chun, Fei, and Cammy.

Please respond, and thanks for the help.


#7

I know it can be infuriating to hear “just don’t get into that situation,” but honestly, that’s about the best advice you can get when dealing with tick throws and especially the throw setups of Gief, Hawk, and Honda. Learn to keep them away, and make them do the work to get to you. In those cases when you do find yourself in their throw ranges, get used to some common setups, and work on your reversal timing to get out of them. These things only come with practice and still are difficult despite that, so expect to eat a lot of dangerous throws.

With tick-throws specifically, getting used to the timing on counter-throwing and softening throws is a must, and I’d say one of the most important things to get a feel for in ST.

Regarding combos, it’s good to know ways to deal significant damage to your opponent when you have an opening, but in all honesty you’re going to find that the shorter combos are the most practical for most characters.


#8

the easiest way to understand when you’re in a grab setup or not is to play those characters for a bit. there are two crucial elements that must both be present for a grab setup to take place.

  1. frame advantage
  2. inside the grab range.

a proper tick comes from a state of frame advantage. these include:

  • deep/late jump ins (early hits actually lead to frame disadvantage!)
  • any blocked/hit light attack
  • any meaty medium attack (most medium attacks leave you close to neutral)
  • gief’s meaty low roundhouse (rarely do hard attacks leave you in a state of frame advantage) other exceptions include cammy’s close fierce, fei’s close/crouch fierce.

that’s usually when any tick is going to come. the other thing to watch for is where the opponent is. once the opponent is in their grab range a 360 can come at any moment. this is when you should be worried. getting out of that range should be your number one priority. but be careful to do it safely.

here’s how gief plays the ryu matchup. it’ll show you some shit.

[media=youtube]IhwsJB9TwnA[/media]


#9

giga’s videos are awesome =)

i have to admit, tick throw setups are one of the few things i dislike with ST, but maybe that’s how the alpha counters and parry system came about (?)


#10

actually it’s more where throw start up, throw invulnerability on first jumping frame and the shift from f+punch throws to two button throw commands came from…

I can’t see how parry would do anything to save you against tick throws.


#11

Tick throws are definitely the hardest thing to learn to combat in SF2. Don’t give up hope!

Common setups to look out for are

Gief:
j.short - This is his most common spd setup. You just make them block a j.short high and then SPD. Just try to block and dp… I’d say maybe like right as he’s landing? It’s hard to describe the timing, it just takes practice. This one is really hard to escape though, I usually fail.

Hawk: jump jab, crouching jab… It’ll either be one jab or two, most typically. Of course, some hawks will just do jump jab, SPD. I guess my best advice other than learn to keep them out better (easier said than done, I know) is to expect the SPD after one hit, and if they do another low jab or low short, pay attention to if it’s one or two, and try to reversal again after.

Honda is also a pain in the ass. Fireballs fuck his shit up, especially in vanilla ST where he has no jab headbutt that goes through them. He’s pretty wide and easy to anti-air, so rather than barraging with fireballs, throw one and just bait a jump. If it’s too far to shoryuken, sweep his j.mk/j.hk on landing (depending on the character you are). Try to find matches here with Honda or other problem characters:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=superturbor&view=videos


#12

bite bite bite bite

Despite their dominating nature in the sf2 series. I love the throw mechanics. Actually, I think I love the mechanic BECAUSE of it’s dominating nature.


#13

Also, I heard from someone before (I honestly forgot who), but throws that use mp that are the same when using hp have slightly more range (and damage!.) I know this is 100% true for Chun, but for the rest of the cast I don’t know.


#14

I am pretty sure Boxer’s MP throw has more range as well - that is the button to use when doing his throw loop.

Chun Li’s MP ground throw I think just deals more damage, doesn’t have extended range. Someone please confirm this.


#15

Get close when you throw. To throw, press a directional button plus hk or hp. Some chs have mp throws as well. Chs like zangeif can throw while crouching. Most everyone can airthrow an opponent. Throws do a lot of damage in SF2 so don’t tempt an opponent into one unless u r sure u can get outta it. It is possible to win simply by knocking an opponent down and then repeatedly throwing if they aren’t exactly pros at sf2.
Particularly damaging throws- ken’s rolling throw, ochio throw by fatman h, boxer’s headbut, the rolling izuna drop, geif’s spd, blanka’s bite.
A throw directly after wakeup on a close opponent is called a reversal throw.
Useful for escaping traps like rh to c. rh or fatman’s o. throw trap.
Gief, awk, blanka, etc advice: DO NOT GET TOO CLOSE TO THEM!
There’s a vid on sirlin.com about this.