No footsie threads?


#1

now I don’t know why there is so very little information about footsies on this site. You hear people drop it here and there but never a fully detailed explanation of it. Let alone how different styles of footsie interact with one another. I know what it is, how its used but I’m seeking a deeper understanding of it from the one I currently know.

personally, I find myself counter hitting properly and judging scenarios BUT when I’m in a spot that isn’t my footsie zone, I tend to move back a lot to gain my proper distancing again. Eventually, there comes a time where I’m trying to create space but can’t because of the corner. Now, I’m stuck in a spot where I have to make a guess @ moving fwd which can certainly be countered. Should I be looking to move fwd during the sequences where I’m not In my best footsie range? Should I always try to fight for the middle part of the screen where the fight starts and move the other guy towards the corner? Defensive footsie in order to gain an offensive advantage is really fucking me up @ the moment.

Is there a best footsie style? Heavily offensive, turtle, the middle ground between the 2, all countering, mixing them all up into 1 strategy etc…

how do offensive and defensive footsies play out during fights?

can one style of footsie easily over whelm another style w\o 2 players ever having the chance to play? intersecting options can counter each other if 2 players have no clue on the other guys tactics.

where in footsie patterns should you look to be dominant?


#2

the footsies you’re talking about is part of the mind game.

the distancing/spacing/priority is just the rules of the game. but each time you play it, you factor in the knowledge/habits/reaction time/behavior of the opponent.

when you say:

defensive footsie
offensive advantage
the various footsie styles etc. etc.

i’m totally lost.

you just watch your opponent and try and make him commit to something you know how to punish without committing to anything dangerous.

i mean i consider mashing various buttons to elicit reactions part of the footsie game. walk into a space and watch how your opponent reacts: does he press a button? does he walk forward? does he stand up? does he move backwards? etc. etc. now you know what he does and you can play around it accordingly.


#3

defensive footsie = footsie after you lost an advantage say after a KD meaty poke.

Offensive advantage = when you gain the advantage to hit first. After a KD, after a good CH etc…

footsie style = we all play footsie different. Some play agressive and others don’t really take much risks and play CH.

fucked up when some nigga can ask how to DP on an arcade stick and get more responses than this thread.


#4

Actually, I’m a bit of a noob. I want to get really good at Street Fighter, and I hear bits about footsies, but I can’t seem to find any info on it. It’d be cool if anyone knew of a thread or if we just made it this one.


#5

Not exactly how to play Footsies, but a huge part of its philosophy from an article written by Seth long ago:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34761

  • James

#6

My homie I will do my best to offer some insight/generate some discussion. Of course, I am no expert, but at least it will get the ball rolling.

  1. I guess the best style would be to have no style. Be completely free, fluid, flexible. There are situations where one or the other would be optimal, and situations where one or the other will get you KOed. I think which style you favor depends on who you are as a person, and what style is best for person A, might not be the best choice for person B. Another thing would be having enough experience to recognize what style would be optimal in any given situation, which can be tricky as hell mid match. Knowing your character and his or her strengths/weaknesses against whoever it is your opponent is playing are also going to influence your decision making in regards to footsie style.

In my humblest of humble opinions on the subject, I think it is best to stay fluid, but if you find something that works, use it, but don’t rely on it.

I am no expert on footsies though, you of all people would know this :looney:

  1. In your definition of defensive footsie, I feel like at that moment or the next following seconds, I really don’t have to play footsie. I can sit there, in defensive crouch, until the clock runs out, or if I am losing, at least for 10 seconds depending on what the clock is reading to see what my opponent is going to do. Depending on where I am in relation to the corners, I can just walk backwards a tiny bit, then resume defensive crouch, or if I am in an optimal position to resume footsies, then I will. Actually, when in your definition of defensive footsie, I would say I am looking for a CH, or an opening to push them back a little bit, like say a block string into a projectile, or just a projectile. Good defensive footsie almost always leads to an opening where you can start your offense…

In offensive footsie, my theory would be if you have an advantage, you should attack, but only if doing so is logical. If you have frame advantage, you should try and capitalize, or if you have a spacial advantage, you should try and capitalize. I tend to frown on being risky, even though at times I do some stupid/risky things myself. I just feel like, if there is a smart, patient way to win, then I would rather discover that instead of exposing myself to risk. I like CH footsie, because the character I play has a lot of priority on his normals, so in a way, CH footsie is my offense, besides zoning/crossup stuff. In my case, I only play offensive footsie to A)tryfor a knockdown. B)CH damage. C)establish some space so I can start zoning them, if zoning them is my game plan. Some characters I can’t zone, so my game plan changes and offensive footsie IS my game plan.

  1. IMHO, the way to be dominant in footsie patterns is A)Recognizing the patterns. B)Knowing how to counter the pattern. C)Not getting predictable with your own patterns. D)Developing character specific patterns. E)Having your spacing down 100% against all characters in any given situation, to me that is key to dominating in footsies. Another thing is picking a character who IS dominant in footsies. Let’s be honest, some do it better than others.

Just some thoughts, I am interested in this subject too.


#7

I just stick something out now and then to keep the other guy guessing.


#8

Footsies seem to have very little place in this game online.

I know thats a gross generalization, but thats really how I feel for the most part. The reward for psyching out your opponent utilizing this aspect of the game just doesn’t seem to be there, at most you’re getting a couple cheap hits, and I don’t see how that means all that much when there are a plethora of abusable high damage tactics for most of the characters, many that are often extremely difficult to punish online.


#9

james chen: I appreciate the link but I’ve been down that path already. All of those threads in the 101 section are definitely gold. However, I would like you input on something if you think its wrong. I would like anyone’s input actually seeing how there is very little information about high level footsie.

mixup told me something a few years back. He was teaching john sindell (sp) how to play marvel and was one of our best ever from this area. He wasn’t a very offensive player all though he could do it, he was naturally defensive and john actually taught mike how he played defense.

iirc, it was rather simple. Basically, what this guy did was figure out how you were attacking. Now, if you take someone’s footsie pattern and break it down, it should have multiple counter spots. Especially if someone is being agressive. His concept wasn’t to counter everything, rather he countered what was easiest. Essentially, what it leads to is a very low risk counter to escape rush down. There was one stipulation with it though. Sometimes when you wait for that “easy” counter, it may happen on the first rotation or the 6th so you had to learn to block to apply this properly.

When one person defines risk, it’s not the same for all of us. To some players, performing a reversal super\special could be risky if they haven’t mastered the just frame inputs. To an experienced player, this shouldn’t be that hard and could very well think about taking the risk since the player is comfortable with the input speed and timing. “risk” when intertwined with fighters usually boils down to what you can do as a player rather than literal meaning of the word.

From what I’ve learned about defense so far, its never about just getting away. Sometimes players recognize that mayhem going on inside your head, let you swing\move and counter appropriately putting you back on the defensive. Defense imo, is countering the proper things that leave your opponent no options or very little options left to exploit while remaining as safe as possible in the process. There are multiple ways of going about this but the end result is the same.

I want to throw one more thing in. One trick I learned about defensive situations is that you don’t even have to swing to get out but this takes practice. In a defensive situation, you don’t have to look to go offensive. The round starts off in a “neutral” state, neither player has moved or thrown a poke\special. You can create “neutral” situation where your opponent doesn’t have that offensive advantage but neither do you. However, in a “neutral” fighting position, you have much more room to move around and then counter to go on the offensive as opposed to moving around while on defense.

2 cents. Feels like i’m just babbling?


#10

In those situations, instead of moving back to a safer/more optimal distance for yourself, why not push the opponent away from you (if you can, I realize sometimes you can’t do this, like say Ryu vs Gief, if you try to FB him while you two are close, he can just lariat you) and establish space that way? In walking back, you are giving up ground, and like you said that eventually puts you in the corner. Why not just stand there or go into block string ->FB, or just FB?

“Should I be looking to move fwd during the sequences where I’m not In my best footsie range?” <-I fudged up the quotes on this one =/

It depends. There are many scenarios where yes, that would be a good idea. There are probably just as many where you should probably stay put, if your position is safe.

Tough questions bro, so many scenarios, and “footsies” for some reason is hard to describe in words, especially when you consider how many times a match you go from an offensive footsie state, to a defensive footsie state, to a neutral footsie state, and intangiBLZ brought up the airborn footsie state. Not to mention the reasons why you go from state to state, from second to second, the causes and effects.


#11

I think I read that post about the ven diagram. interesting posts though.


#12

I’m not sure if I’m reading this right, shoutzula. It sounds to me like you are starting off talking about Footsies, but then deviate into defense. IMO, defense and footsies are two entirely different things. I’m glad you mentioned the “Neutral” fighting position, so I know you understand that concept. But I believe that Footsies is the game you play WHEN in the Neutral situation. Basically, the key to Footsies is that it’s a way to “feel out” the match, get a bead on what’s going on, and finding your chance to start attacking more.

Once you get a “win” in the Footsies game, then it transitions to Offense. That can be anything from landing a Sweep to getting them to block your Fireball, etc. etc. If you land, say, an Alpha 3 Standing Roundhouse with Sakura, you’re not really gaining a huge advantage, so yeah… you’re back to Footsies, unless you land a Counter Hit or decide to press the offense after hitting them with it.

Once the enemy starts rushing YOU down, they are on offense as well… which means you are on Defense. Trying to find the hole to break out, IMO, is playing defense… it’s not Footsies anymore.

So to me, Footsies actually comprises VERY little of an actual fight if I broken them down like a Sports stat. “Choi was in Offense about a total of 2 minutes and 35 seconds, defense for about 54 seconds, and was playing footsies for about 25 seconds.” But the reason why it’s so important is because winning Footsies puts you at the advantage, and puts you on the offense… if that’s your thing. If you are Guile and are turtling with Sonic Booms and keeping them away with Low Forward, I honestly don’t consider that footsies. And Guile is better off in SOME matches not playing Footsies at all. A character like Ryu can play Footsies AGAINST Guile, trying to break the defense, but Guile isn’t really playing Footsies back, because he’s not being very mobile.

I dunno, that’s my take on it right now. Dunno if it makes sense. If anything sounds confusing, I’ll be glad to try and flesh out my comments.

  • James

#13

Fuck footsies. It’s all about jumping HK.


#14

JCHENSOR ^^^ Agreed… I view footsies as a way (no matter how small) to create (or even transition between) situational advantages. “Footsies” facilitate to small swings between offense and defense. .

Many can interpret this in many ways, you can get all Miyamoto Musashi/ S?n Z? B?ng F? [SunTzu], and say a things like a to attack is to defend, “stomp the sword,” or if you’re a [media=youtube]fJNC3dgreaU"[/media] (< Click it) fan you could say the best offense is a good defense)

Sometimes the difference between offense and defense is so huge it is very obvious who is defending and who is attacking. Sometimes the difference between offense and defense is SO small that they are basically the same thing. In that immeasurably small place, I feel you find footsies. They can be used to control space, press advantages, disguise tactics, stall a match, or slowly incrementally damage your opponent.


#15

seriously.


#16

Not that surprising to me, considering 95% of people who consider themselves SF fans are not at a sufficient level of proficiency to start worrying about footsies!

Silly recommendation for mediocre scrubs like me working hard to up their game… if you want to start understanding a character’s normals fast, try playing against other people without using any of your specials for a little while. Obviously it’s most important to know how to properly/best incorporate them into your normal play, but trying no specials is a really good first step to upping your game.

For most people learning SF, once they can do a character’s special moves it’s almost all they ever do anymore. Deliberately cutting them out will quickly teaches you how useful your normals really are. You are going to get wasted by a lot of players you could otherwise beat just fine but you are going to learn very very fast. Doing this was one of the fastest and easiest boosts I’ve ever given myself skill-wise.

Ranked online matches are cool for this because you don’t know any of those dudes and they are all trying their best for you.


#17

Deadfrog’s selling himself short here. This isn’t silly at all. This advice is gold! It really will teach you a ton about your character. Give it a shot and try all your moves in different situations! :tup:


#18

Dude you play Sim. Its a lot easier to do when you can actually win with that shit.

Edit: Not that it doesn’t sound like a good idea, I really think it does but I just don’t have the discipline I guess.


#19

I main Sim, and I usually don’t switch characters at tournies. But that’s more of a mindset thing than out of necessity. Casually, I play with most of the cast. I think I’m even pretty decent with a few of them.

Anyway, I actually think this exercise is more useful for non-sim players. Sim players already know that they need to use normals to beat jump-ins and such. Other players may not. Let me give a few examples:

  • Back in the arcade days I had no idea that Ryu could do a crouching roundhouse as anti-air. Even though this is probably common knowledge today due to SRK, Youtube, etc. I bet many people still haven’t perfected the spacing and timing to use it reliably.

  • How many Ryu players can honestly say that they standing MP, LK, and MK as anti-airs when appropriate?

  • How many Chun Li players use standing LP or MK as part of their standard anti-air arsenal?

  • How many Hondas use crouching LK to stop advances on the ground?

  • How many Bisons use crouching HP to anti-air shotos jump-ins?

  • How many Vega(Claw) players use standing MK to completely shutdown a shotos ability to throw fireballs or poke? For that matter, how many Claw players use any ground normals besides slide and MP?

I think this exercise is great for two reasons. First, it forces you to try some new things. Secondly, it really helps you to perfect the ones you do know about. I know it’s an awkward way to play, but I really do think it’s helpful.


#20

Actually, I have only played 2 Ryu’s who have ever done this to me, and I have played a lot of Ryu’s on GGPO and XBL. DGV, who I have a pretty low winning % against (me shakes fist) and V-Ryu. The st short and forward AA’s piss DeeJay off =/

Edit: I need to add my sherbet Ryu homie to my XBL friends list =]

Edit: Well put jchensor.