Hi guys, had a lot of free time today so I decided to make a video on an effective way to stop DPs among other things. Hopefully I didn’t fuck anything up, let me know if the theory is correct or flawed (should be right though.) I rarely see people talk about it, so I’m not sure if it’s something universally known or something only a few know. I’m not sure where else to post this, so here it is
You should OS against backdashes first.
nice thanks !
I’m not sure what you mean, are you talking about teaching it in the video or using it as a diagnostic tool to open up opponents? I didn’t want to mention other things because there are countless videos and posts about those, such as OS’s against backdashing, or explaining crouch techs or frame traps, antiairing or anything similar. I assume the viewer knows what those are. I just wanted to touch on one particular thing that I never seen talk about but is just as important as the aforementioned techniques.
Well, the title is “offensive” + crouch tech (witch is a defensive tool used when you know the opponent have the possibility to throw, here to wake up throw).
If I forgot the basic of not letting the opponent free on wake up like that, and only focus on what you try to do (covering options with OS) then I think you should input : :db: + :lk: + :lp: chained with :db: + :3k: or :db: + :lp: + :hk: or any other possibilities your char have. Like if you’re ken you can OS step kick in light chains your OS would then be : :db: :lp: + :lk: , :f: + :lp: + :mk: with chain timing so if the opponent back dash you hit him.
But I really think you should meaty on wake up to cover the most wake up option only letting the opponent try a reversal you can bait next time.
Yeah I was also very iffy about the name “offensive crouch tech” but I don’t know how else to refer to it. Again I almost never hear it mentione. The name doesn’t really matter anyway.
I see what you’re saying, I probably should have mentioned that but from the looks of it, I don’t think it would work on all backdashes, so it would need to be tested on a case by case basis. Because there is a delay of course. I mean ken already has a ton of trouble on some backdashes like rose’s or chun’s so with the added delay, I’m not sure if it would work on most of the cast. It would need testing. Also I don’t think step kick is a good way to punish backdashes especially with the added delay. By itself, it’s slow and gives off shit damage, no knockdown, low frame advantage etc.
Also, the technique ends up hitting backdashes/focus backdashes anyway when the timing is right as shown from the video (after the 7th or so frame invincibility of backdash). So in conclusion I would have to look at it further, it definitely looks like something that works only in specific situations (eg. how much delay you did, frame data of opponents’ backdash)
simple as that. Is not meaty and you are abusing autoblock+delayed crouch tech… thats why you have “never” heard of this before
crouch tech is not a defense only technique. the title is offensive crouch tech and that’s exactly what it is. doesn’t need to be renamed.
this technique is used often in 3s as well. it’s just called offensive crouch tech. in that game it’s useful for confirming if they don’t block, teching if they throw, and parrying if they wakeup with low buttons.
of course it doesn’t beat everything, it’s not the most important thing to learn on someone else’s wakeup, but it still has value in beating a specific set of options.
Yep yep, I was just making sure you don’t put this delayed wakeup pressures over the meaty ones.
And for focus backdash, the good ones are focus delayed backdash, so you usually wont catch the airborn frames, the opponent will escape clean if delayed right.
It always depends on the way each players execute their stuff at the end.
Another good technique with the same goal to be safe against mashed DP is after a blocked jump in deep (aka : meaty). Yes, shotos block sometimes
You jump, walk in some frame, and continue your down back lk, etc. string. The timing is tight, but brain dead. If you hit it’ll combo, if not you’ll have the down back exactly on their reversal windows and block the reversal. Need some training and confirm a deep block stun. But it’s a common move to take advantage of huge block stun to stand up and walk closer (we talk about 3/4 frames here) to frame trap a throw tech and bait a reversal.
nice video. this actually gets used a whole lot more at high level in sf4 than people realize. its likely to just float over most peoples heads tho because of how subtle it is. in fact this is the first time anyone has tried to make a video of it, and i know japan has been using it since like vanilla
thats why youre getting responses about OSing back dashes or whatever. youre on the right track tho
you should do a series or just another video about front side meaty pressure. maybe put in some of the high level examples etc
That’s right Shabrout. I actually should’ve added that this can be used not only from a knockdown, but basically any situation that yielded frame advantage. But if the viewer really thinks about the applications of the technique, that should be obvious.
Thanks, I know right? For such a powerful technique that is so common at top top level, you almost never hear it talked about. There’s also guard jumping that’s another very powerful technique that can kill grapplers that’s never mentioned in the US. I knew about it from 3S but in that Japanese pre-EVO 2014 EVO Daigo briefly mentioned how it really kills Hugo’s mixup game. I’m positive it would also do the same for other grapplers as well.
What do you mean by “front side meaty pressure”? I’m not sure how to interpret that, can you elaborate?
There’s a bunch of other things I was thinking of doing, such as deconstructing the ground game of SF4 or doing a more in depth analysis of cr.techs/frame traps. In particular, I don’t think a lot of people really understand how easy it is to punish frame trap attempts, and they seem to think that frame traps are a hard counter to cr.tech (like late DPs are a hard counter to jump ins.)
I hadn’t thought about trying guard jump in 4. mind giving a rundown on the specifics? I know in 3s it’s guard on the first 5 frames, then jump out. since you can’t be thrown first 5f of wakeup, it option selects defense. you block if they meaty, jump out if they throw. it of course loses to delayed oki attacks. you also have to return to downback after inputting the jump. if you don’t, for strings like short short short the second two shorts will hit you and they can confirm into super.
same story in 4?
Similar story in SF4; only difference is that, from the blog that I read, you only guard for 1 frame then jump to stop Hugo’s mixup. But I think it can also work against zangief, thawk and hakan as well. Against gief, you can probably get a full punish on EX greenhand doing it so it probably is very powerful.
And it will technically also work against other characters like yun, fei long, makoto, abel, seth. You just have to delay it a little longer. The only thing is that, technically speaking, doing this does make you vulnerable against grabs. Unless you were somehow able to put a tech in there (clearly it needs testing.) But then that would make you prone to air counterhits, like abel cr.fierce. Then again backdash does wonders against these command grabs.
In 3S it’s a little different because in that game, after blockstun/hitstun/knockdown/air reset, there are 6 frames of throw invulnerability. So a guard jump not only helps against characters like makoto but regular situations as well. SF4 doesn’t have that mechanic so obviously you have to consider the threat of a normal grab.
So yeah you would have to test this out in action, but yes it’s in the game. A lot of things in 3S, not just things like EX moves but many high level techniques made its way to SF4 as well. I think that’s how Japan caught up in SF4 so fast, they already had 3S experience and quickly realized a lot of techniques easily translated into the new game.
That would be a big irony considering how Capcom’s goal from day 1 was to stay away from 3S as if it were the plague. Anyway, thanks for the video, even if it is basic at high level I had never taken it into account. It has been quite useful in these days as a number of online Ryus and Kens can attest.
2f in sf4 instead of 6f of throw invul
source: somewhere in the wiki
Thanks for the tip, that passed over my head because I’ve done training mode tests where I’ve been able to execute throws when the 0th frame advantage was reached, so I reached that conlusion. If there were no throw invulnerability than it would be possible to throw off situations where you are +2 lol, so it makes sense. Throws are 3 frames (first active frame on 3rd frame), I like to use the traditional frame data style and call it 2 frame startup.
So suppose the frame advantage is 0 and you execute a throw. Because it’s the 0th frame the 2 frame throw invulnerability begins, but at the same time the throw’s 2 frame startup occurs, and when the third frame is reached (the first active), the throw invulnerability is gone and the throw executes as normal. Interesting stuff, looks like that’s what the game developers were going after. Also makes sense in-game, because I know a blocked ken cr.short (+1 on block) into kara grab (3+1 frame startup) is uninterruptible. I know in SFxT it’s very wierd, because jabs/shorts beat the startup of throws easily, but on wakeup there were many times where I read a throw, pressed a button and still got thrown (when throws were 7 frame startup pre 1.08), and throw invulnerability in KOF13 is very crazy (varies per character!)
EDIT: Actually if there is 2 frame invulnerability, I think 1 frame guard jumps would work. The only question is, are you still throwable in prejump startup frames?
you cant be thrown in pre jump
thats why pre jump cancel lariat works against meaty throws or even jumping can be used against meaty throws
one simple way to test the 2f throw invul is doing a meaty throw on gief to beat everything but reversal SPD