Official discussion thread regarding Game design - what pleases you about ST and HDR

This topic resurfaces from time to time.

This thread is created for those who want to discuss this, and want their viewpoint explained to people having a different opinion.

This thread is also created for those who are sick of discussing this so we can prevent this kind of discussion randomly polluting other threads.

Please stay on topics and be courteous to others (even if they have different viewpoints).

It would be best to focus on expressing your opinions instead of attacking others.

Thank you!

continuing from the thawk thread…

the combined response is longer than 25000 characters…

The T. Hawk discussion seems to basically boil down to whether or not people feel that one of the weakest characters in the game overall should have the ability to completely lock down an opponent once he achieves the goal of getting into that position. I’m cool with that. ST is a game of positional advantage. If you allow your opponent into the position that allows him to lock you down, you get locked down. You lose the round. The real fight is in gaining and maintaining advantage, and if you commit that large of an error (or conversely, if your opponent manages that strong of a setup) to get into that situation against an opponent who can execute the lockdown, then you have already lost the round for yourself, regardless of what the health bars or time-clock say.

If that kind of focus on positional advantage over moment-to-moment action does not appeal to you, then there are other games to play, including HDR, which is a very nice middle ground between ST’s style of play and many other fighters.

papasi – who made you the boss of us? I’ll post wherever I like thanks.

@geo: like fatboy said, it’s very easy to misinterpret somebody’s intention on the internet. If we can avoid spreading hostility that’d be preferable.

It’s just a suggestion (I said please). I’m not a mod of this forum.

At least we can put everything into one thread for those who’d like to continue, do it here and for those who don’t want any business of these, they can ignore this thread.

Being punished for your mistakes is broken.

Not possessing a lockdown option does not reduce the importance of positional advantage; it just means that you don’t basically win the round for getting into the advantaged position regardless of what your opponent does.

It is a huge thrill to be able to land safe loops with Hawk. In ST, however, it is possible to actually reach a level of skill where you can remove your opponent from the match. Allowing options in the game that have no way out stymies one of the key components of the game itself: the mind game. Remember the SPD changes Zangief received from WW to CE? Extremely lopsided risk-reward scenarios aren’t generally looked upon as good game design for a reason; that’s why traditionally they have been phased out in newer versions.

It’s not out-playing someone when you get them into a position where your dexterity alone can GUARANTEE you a match. It’s straight-up Harlem Globetrotters trick shots for 50 points apiece…there’s a reason the NBA sticks to two- and three-point shots. Contrary to popular belief, it takes more skill, not less, to consistently defeat opponents without the option for such spectacular unstoppable blowouts (no matter how sexy very awesome and talented Japanese players make it look on video).

So many times the counter-argument is thrown about how “perfectly balanced games are no fun.” That is almost certainly true! It doesn’t mean we’re asking for such a thing when we want the ability for shenanigans and blowout moves to be toned down, just somewhere in the middle. I think NKI and James Chen both hit the nail on the head, though; Sirlin’s job, though completely respectable, feels somehow half-finished regarding bugs and inconsistent/unfinished applications. (Whether these were by choice, or by time deadlines or coding issues, they still exist.) It might not be perfect, but it certainly did open up the play field for more of what makes SFII fun to most of us: the ability to outmaneuver your opponent…and that’s what’s most important.

Ganelon nailed it before though; without an arcade release in Japan, HDR vs ST will never be a valid comparison due to accessibility reasons. Do something about it by contributing to your own local SFII scene as much as you can, and everyone wins.

voice of reason indeed.

Papasi, thanks for isolating this thread. Thanks also for posting all of the initial messages (they could use some context in the form of inner quotes, but I realize that would have made significantly more work for you).

This right here.

I have an impression some of you might be too caught up just because it is theoretically possible. But in practice it definitely is not. It’s the same argument they try to tell you that you could be the possible lottery winner. Like intangiBLZ said, to get the safe jump timing correct every time in every situation / different stage is extremely hard.

Let’s say you got knockdown in the corner and you are facing a very solid hawk that can execute the loop 95% (which is extremely high).

If a single dp can kill you, then he has a 95% of chance winning just off one loop. (he only need to do the loop correctly once)

If a typhoon can’t kill you, then he has a 90.25% chance of winning by performing the loop (he needs to perform 2 loops back to back correctly )

If you can take more damage (option select either DP or 360) then the percentage drop to 85%, 81%, etc.

And that is considering that you got yourself into that situation in the first place, AND facing toutanki/viper at his prime.

If your opponent is a gief, he can still safe jump you and do a jab x0, x1, x2, x3 into 360 guessing game. Your chance in that situation isn’t that good either.

Well, let’s not talk about the extremely hard to perform loop, link combos, etc.

Charge moves (back forward) and Fireball moves (QCF) are easy to perform and CW motion and 360 in ST are hard.

Easier moves should not be as powerful as hard to perform, high damage / good priority moves (CW/SPD).

The thing I don’t like in HDR is that it makes the good moves easier to perform (SPD requires one less direction) or even out right as easy as a FB move (CW). That completely throws the game off balance IMO.

In ssf4, SPD has the same input of HDR but it does not take off that much life (SPD’s range and damage both suck) and CW’s input is same as ST (although you have more frames to complete the motion)

Don’t know what you mean by extra difficult because some people are naturally gifted with video games and can do a lot of stuff easily (FPS, FG).

But the answer to that question is yes. Good moves should be harder to use and easier move should be less powerful.

Also, the link combo in ssf4 are not easy at all. The sako links or the desk links are insanely hard. Those who can perform the sako links can take cammy to EVO top 8. So should we make it easier so that people playing simpler characters like bison, balrog or sagat can also rock cammy at the highest level play?

We’re talking about the extreme case for t hawk. That is the ultimate technique that one wants to learn if you want to be the number 1 t hawk and use t hawk to win a national tournament.

For a group of friends playing sf2, just mastering all the special commands (360, maybe even 720) and you can play t hawk fine with your friends.

On ggpo for instance, maybe only damdai currently can do that loop semi successfully, but there are bunch of other people using t hawk to compete just fine.

Yeah, I know on the internet people love to quote :slight_smile: But if this is an offline discussion (not like internet where you analyze a single sentence to death), we might have a more fruitful conversation.

Some of the ST bugs are nice to fix (ken/sagat reversal super) while some of the bugs are desirable (sim reversal super, chun’s stored super, unless in 1994 they rebalance sim and chun before giving sim back the reversal super or removing stored super buff from chun)

And none of them are big deals. The non-bug balancing issue like claw, o sagat I wished they would have sirlin’s changes in 1994 too. But again, not totally a deal breaker but nice to have.

You can say that I’m biased but the trade off with the issues in HDR is not really worth it.

Yes but this probably have nothing to do with ST. In vanilla SF4, all top finishes are Sagat and Rufus.

The top tier finishing of ST in a lot of NORTH AMERICA tourneys are more of a culture difference between the US and Japan.
People might hate me for saying that but I do see people here love top tier easy wins. In Japan each character has a few specialists spending time mastering them. In last SBO, I think only feilong is not represented (damn you noguchi!). The last beast cup 2 Ito demonstrated how SOLID his DeeJay is.

Also regarding HDR - I like variety of top finishes too. BUT I still think that the game is too young. The current tier list is not accurate. It’s similar to the ST tier list in early 90’s (they think deejay is top tier).

If HDR will live on for 15 years and you have people spending their time to master / discover each character, I think the same top 3-5 characters will end up in US HDR tourney.

Oh and I want to reply to philcito’s post earlier where he said he like Remix Ken over N Ken because all 3 DP knock down on first hit so he can piano reversal DP, and also you mentioned that HDR changed some of the overlapped input.

First of all, in casual low-mid level play, the reversal DP doesn’t matter because people are just playing for fun. Those people probably won’t spend time in training mode anyway.

For those that take the game seriously, learning double tap jab dp reversal is a MUST. Because not just ken, but at least half of cast’s reversal special do not have the same invincible frames / hit boxes.

It’s one of the essential FG skills that you need to master and you can use this in every game.

Relying on HDR to make it easier for you is not doing you any good (then you don’t have this double tap technique in your arsenal, you can only piano)

Same thing for overlapped input. I do get quite frustrated with sim’s flame and fire ball at the beginning. (before I always do fireball from a standing block position, i.e. HCF). And cigarbob taught me how to avoid the accidental walk up funky kick (want walk up cr. RH). And I discovered myself how to do cancel cr. RH into fireball without accidental funky kick.

After I overcome these, I have cleaner execution compared to a year ago and it’s a great sense of accomplishment, however subtle it is.

I bet every ST veteran would appreciate how the skills they learned in this game help them transition well into other games. Daigo can still do the st. fierce xx super easily at SBR. He must have spent quite some time mastering that. And what people would say about Daigo’s execution in every game?

This just isn’t true. Since I’ve been around, I’ve seen blanka, zangief, o. hawk, o. ken, chun, o. sagat, ryu, ken, dhalsim, claw, boxer, guile, deejay, honda, and dictator in top 8 at US majors, with most in top 3. Then you have almost every character that has been represented in top 8 in japan. The variation was and is there.

Low tier characters have been successful at some ST tournaments, but those instances are largely outliers. It is clear that there is only a relatively small number of viable long term tournament characters in ST.

There is no mind-game removed by Hawk having this loop, it is just placed differently than what you’re looking for. The mind games are in his trying to get into that position of advantage versus your trying to avoid it. Once you’re in that position, you’ve already lost the mind-game. The opponent is only removed from the match once he has made the critical error that allowed him to be removed from the match, or when the Hawk player has outplayed him to the point where he is forced out of the match. It’s not really any different than a ToD combo: If you get into that position, you’ve earned your loss. The mind-game is finished before the loop ever starts.

Now certainly, there are folks who don’t like ToD combos and throw loops, and I’m not even saying they’re ideal design taken as individual elements. However, ST is a game that is built on not getting into a bad position, and for those of us who love the game, even if we don’t find those individual elements ideal, they work within its context.

Cammy was in top 8 at Evo 2010’s ST tournament, btw.

Both sides are looking at this the wrong way. Both games are different, some people prefer each game, so instead of arguing over versions we should use that fact to our advantage. Since both games are different I say we that just means we need to run BOTH games at every tournament. If they are run correctly it wouldn’t take long to run both, one right after the other (or even at same time if have to). Throw a team tourney in there and you can spend the whole day playing SF2. Just sticking to one or the other is silly.

Because lets face it, no matter how much you prefer one version over the other, either version is still 100 times better than having to play SSF4!

I like the idea of a well balanced Ken…idk you guys but as far as i know ken has that stupid srks because the SF developers didn’t have the time to fix it and they thought that you always will get every hit for every dp version.

Papasi, as you may know i play ST too and now it’s my main SF game, i didn’t have any problem just adapting to a jab srk reversal, when i started this i didn’t have a clue what a piano input is, so my first “way” was the jab dp as my best defensive tool, so i was forced to double tap the jab button. I realized that i wasn’t doing the “right” thing and i learned piano input.

The big question is… why are you(not papasi himself) always trying to disqualify another peeps point of view?.

I’ve seen a big trend here… “if you love HDR, you’re not cool, you’re WRONG, blah blah blah”, you love ST:“man you’re so bad ass”.

I’m not against HDR or ST, i enjoy both games and i’m not looking for someone else aproval. I like some HDR changes but it’s true and everybody that really knows me, know that i hate HDR easier inputs. Because i love old st strict inputs and I feel so happy to land 3 or 4 spds in a row and goddamn i love old 360 motions.

Half of my heart is with ST and the other Half is with HDR, i have good friends on both sides and they don’t even care if i like one game or another.

How touching.

@ultra I think he’s being sincere. I know sf4 brought you to ST but if your first game is HDR you might have made some friends there too…

What do you mean? I don’t understand…

Me 2. I don’t think every change in HDR is bad but there are some that I cannot stand so…

And thanks to ganelon pointing out this local ST arcade thread

They are also discussing why they prefer one version over the other. I agreed with Axel that SF2 evolved up to ST took a lot of effort in planning and design. Sirlin might have taken up a bigger project than he thought given the time constraint and resources…

My wish exactly. And damdai said if he is rich he’ll throw a tournament, Bruce Lee Enter the Dragon style, in the caribbean! Invites only!

And DGV is the pathetic black dude that get killed the day before the grand final by the host, damdai, in the underground office. DGV accidentally discovered damdai’s babyzone technique and he didn’t get the chance to tell the world.