Ehhh I wouldn’t go that far, I would chalk it up as “shit happens”.
Dunno how people can say Sagat is obsolete to Ryu when his low tigers stop wavedashes straight up. Right there people should be able to see Sagat will have applications in matchups that Ryu can’t. And this doesn’t even count kara DP… in a game where people are complaining about DP tag, kara DP should be pretty scary. Sagat builds better meter than Ryu, too.
People are just too quick to admit defeat and say Ryu is unstoppable. Truth is, he has some weaknesses that other characters do not.
Also, you’d all better get used to a good Ryu in this game. I imagine any future build of Ryu will be mostly the same… I imagine they might change some of his jab pressure and maybe make DP have less blockstun (for DP tag punishes), but I don’t think they’ll be changing much else. Think about what Sagat can do better than Ryu, and then do that.
Ryu is far from unstoppable, he’s just uncharacteristically good. The thing about Ryu is that he’s the balance character. He’s always in the middle of the tiers because he doesn’t need to be higher to be effective. Being perfectly average always works to his advantage because he’s never really disadvantaged in that he has all of the tools he’ll ever need. In this game, he just has all of the tools (as well he should), but with numbers that beat a lot of other characters and its very weird and unsettling.
Low Tiger also fails to stop an alarming number of things.
ALot of them are EX versions of moves, but in this game, the reward for landing said EX anti-fireball move is much greater.
Sagat and Ryu are too different to obsolesce each other. Their zoning and footsies are different, their combo tools are different, fuck they’re just plain different. They both have fireballs and DPs, that’s their similarity and Sagat is better at both.
I really couldn’t give less of a shit if Ryu can dash cancel is fireball. If a duck/anti-fireball move is going to punish a fireball it’s going to punish/neutralize a dash. Ryu is not going to punish anti-fireball options with dash > anything. It’s also incredibly useless vs walk up > block. Fake a fireball into a dash and if they do anything other than jump you’ve lost ground. Delay your fireball so you can fake it if they jump and you’ve lost ground. Also, I lawl every time I see that tactic used for pressure. If you can’t reaction punish a dash that’s been telegraphed by a big shiny hadouken stance then you deserve whatever shitty mixup Ryu has coming to you.
Sagat has a better fireball game, superior battery, superior damage off an AA, completely different footsie game, and his mp jump-in is disjointed. He lacks tools such as tatsu, joudan, and footsie tools Ryu has. Also if you want to talk about that fraudulent joudan ‘frame trap’ that everyone’s complaining about, I’d take tiger knee pressure over that bullshit any day. You cannot reaction DP a tiger knee (and it combos in the corner similarly).
My tier list http://bit.ly/Lhs6MZ
I really should not even bother trying to argue with people about this game because I have not played it in a month. Emblemlord you more than likely know a whole lot more about Sagat in SfxT then I ever will. Maybe I was a little hasty in saying that Ryu was better than Sagat in every way but what I really meant by that statement is that Ryu is better where it counts. I stopped playing Sagat after about week 1 because there was just certain match ups where he just could not cut it.
(Juri was a nightmare for me). The thing is I really feel that Sagat is better than Ryu in ways that are very trivial in the long run. What are Sagat’s strengths I am sure you know them
Low Tiger Shot is strong in certain match ups but at what cost you have to commit to it and in certain match ups that will slaughter you
If I am so worried about characters running through my Hadokens then I can just put a low forward out there and take a third of their life
Sagat has Steller normals to be sure but Ryu’s are nearly as good plus Ryu has the movement to back them up. Yes Sagat has St lk which Ryu has no equivalent but even with that tool Ryu still has a better footsie game then Sagat does.
Battery to me anyway is unimportant in a game where I always have truck loads of meter anyway. During a match I build more than enough to cover what my team needs, Sagat is once again obsolete in this aspect, meter building is a strength that Ryu has too and does it proficiently enough that it becomes unnecessary to build anymore what he needs. A counter argument would be that you can never have enough meter which is true you could always use more of it, but I will take Ryu’s movement mix up, and neutral game over a great meter builder any day.
Sagat’s Varied anti air game while very powerful is once again trivial I don’t need to do 300 meterless damage off a step kick( a very situational anti air at best) when I can just get 450 off of a one meter tag canceled uppercut.
This is one thing that I don’t know much about but at first glance Sagat’s Kara Dp’s felt pretty weak to me to the point where I felt I could no longer consider them to be a relevant strength.
One thing I will give you though and this is a strength that Sagat has that is quite relevant is that Sagat out performs Ryu in certain match ups. Rufus in particular get slaughtered by Sagat just like he always has.
In the Sf4 series the differences between Ryu’s Strengths and Sagat’s Strengths made them both very relevant to the metagame as a whole. I just don’t feel that Sagat is all that relevant in this game as he is in SF4 that’s just my opinion I hope I gave enough reasons why I feel this way.
P.s Emblemlord I am a Sagat player in Sf4 and reading what you have written in the SF4 Sagat thread was a big part of what helped me get better at playing SF as a whole. I hope you take none of this post as disrespectful as I have the utmost respect for you.
What are Kazuya’s faults? Why do you consider Law better than Ibuki? And why do you think Cammy and Vega are better than Raven?
Also, King more rounded than Steve and Nina? Hugo and Rolento a tier above Juri? Lots of things I disagree with…
You can add me too if you want. But I don’t play as much as I used to, and I’m still in the middle of a team identity crisis. So I tend to swap characters around quasi randomly.
I agree, lot of things I don’t agree with also.
About Kazuya, I think he should be lower than S-tier. If you can manage his EWGF combos then he’s close but not S-Tier.
I think the best characters in SFxT are the ones that can mix-up to big damage. Kazuya can’t do that IMO; all his strings hard knockdown and if you make the right call, they are all punishable on block. His right kick overhead (the one with most advantage) is +3 on counterhit. Along with WGF/mistep and EWGF losing to lows (AND LOW TIGER), I’m not sure you can really put Kaz at S-Tier. His non WGF, EWGF damage probably needs to be toned down imo.
Kuro and Toro top tier. Seems legit.
Now, explain to me WHY characters are where they are.
I could never take insult to someone expressing their thoughts in a polite, respectful, intelligent manner.
Ryu is a better character overall, this is non-debatable. But the question is does he make Sagat useless? And to that I say at this point in the metagame, hell no. Ryu is safer because he loses to no one and has top tier tools. Sagat has a few bad matches with top tier tools so while powerful he still has his up hill struggles.
But Sagat as a defensive powerhouse is still a very real threat. Being the best battery means he always has meter meaning the threat of cross cancel is something his opponent needs to always be aware of. He doesnt need any more then a single bar to take near half life as long as his partner hits hard. (Steve, any Mishima, King, Hugo, etc.) It also means he can afford to throw away meter to gain advantage in a projectile war if need be. So chars like Chun and Raven who can hold their own normally really need to stay on the ball.
In many tier lists Hugo and Gief are ranked higher then Gat. I think this is garbage but hey im all for it because Sagat murders them as he always has murdered pure grapplers. Ken is up there too and in this game there is no match between Ken and Sagat. Ken prays he lands cross up tatsu or dies trying. Rolento, Heihachi and Kazuya as well. Sagat has slight advantage vs them all. This means Sagat firmly has a place as a legit counter pick to metagame favorites. His match vs Ryu is pretty close as well. If Ryu does win, I would only give him the very slight nod and really only when Ryu has super as he can blow through Tiger Shots. But without super I would say it leans toward Sagat.
Also 300 damage? No sir. Falsehoods. You land a step kick ur getting 360 MINIMUM. Step kick x 2, HP TU. 450 damage off an AA? Yeah pretty good.
See what kind of damage you get with Steve or Hugo after step kick x 2, HP TU tag cancel. You have only scratched the surface I promise you. Over half life for one bar and you can set up for that damage consistently? Yeah I think you like that and I think that’s why you would wanna play Sagat. Step kick is not situational as its much faster in this game with a wider hitbox. Just work on ur reactions. Up close you will want to TU though cuz people like to hit buttons in which case hey CH TU for you.
If you thought Kara TU is weak in this game idk what you thought about it in AE tbh. But what Kara TU means is that just like in SFIV if you are anywhere but at the corner of the screen and you jump and Sagat isnt in the corner himself and has at least one bar, hey guess what? You just lost half ur life. That is a game changer no matter how you look at it. Also with Karu TU Sagat can punish many of the safer boost combo strings on block like Cammy’s anything to st. far hk. He can also do that with rh into boost combo. Kazuya has a fairly safe string as well ending in st.hp that Gat can easily punish with st.hk into boost combo.
Sagat has strong zoning but his mid range game is stronger then it has ever been. EX TK beats basically everything thats not invincible and sets up for combos after wall bounce. Regular TK hitbox got hella buffed. If you land on a shoto low forward Sagat flat out wins now. He doesnt get hit then comboed for free, he smashes his knee in Ryu’s face and sends him flying backwards. The damage is still poor on second hit but the frame data is stupid good now. one frame slower BUT less recovery and more block stun. A perfect lk tk puts Sagat at plus five on block. +5!!! A sloppy knee will usually be around +3 which is still hella good. Joudan puts Ryu at +1 and people complain about that. +5 is insane for such a high priority mid range tool, but the low damage means Capcom knew what they were doing when they tweaked this move.
Tiger Genocide hits on frame 3. Amazing punish move. Period. Also means he can’t be safe jumped when he has 2 bars.
St.lk is now + on block and he gains more frame advantage when he hits from further away. That’s bonkers to me and I don’t see how capcom thought this was ok to give him but w/e i aint complaining.
But i think what makes him a truly valid and dangerous choice is his synergy. He just works so well within the engine. He is a team player in a team based game. He covers the weaknesses of many Tekken chars while they cover his. I feel he really embodies what the metagame is. Two chars bring their strengths together to mitigate their weaknesses.
Sagat is damn sure capable of at least placing at a major. Jibbo showed us that at Civil War. And he did it with what I’m saying. By playing smart defense, knowing his ranges, good punishes and tags and maximizing his meter usage and damage opportunities with Jin as anchor. This is nothing specific to Sagat but they ARE what he excels at, which definitely earns him a place as one of the scariest characters in the game.
I mean do people legitmately think Guile, Ken, Hugo, Geif and Rolento (among others) are better then Sagat? From a match-up point of view?
I call hogwash.
I definitely agree. If I was gonna be real cheap, I’d pick Sagat/Kazuya… oh wait.
OH I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE, CUZ THAT’S THE TEAM I PLAY AND…
yeah, fuck you.
Notable points thank you for sharing your knowledge.
For the record I have never thought Gat was worse than a grappler.
In my mind he is roughly an A Tier character just because of some bad match ups.
I think we all agree about that though.
I guess I was a little ignorant in stating that he did not have the relevant strengths to keep up in the metagame. You have convinced me that he has enough unique strengths that Ryu does not have to make him important in this game.
In a game where jumping around like a flea is considered high level strategy, the dude that uppercuts bears to train will always be relevant.
This inspires me to play Sagat, I really like his style and he was the first character I picked in SF4, but the lack of knowledge I had before I couldn’t make it work.
I been thinking about writing a Sagat primer in the Sagat forums for SFxT. Just an overview of his gameplan, what buttons to use and what options are best at certain ranges. Might turn into a full blown guide but idk.