Official SRK Ultra SF4 Rebalance Request Thread

His U1 could be useful if it had better startup and travelled a bit to punish fireballs. Like Chuns… Why isn’t his U1 like Chuns?

More than that, I kind of want to talk about this.

Kinda disagree. v2012 is pretty damn well balanced, and if you’re going to go through the trouble of making changes, adding characters and systems, just save it for SF5. SF4 still has another year or two left in it on its current legs so just let it ride out and then we can jump to a new game later.

[/FONT]He already has to cheat around via looking at setups and the like after characters are picked, and he wants another batch of matchups and char specific shit on top? The heck.

?? No, Adon isn’t the only char with different wakeup timing.

Of course! But you still have to keep other people in mind. I don’t think it’s good gamedesign to have some tool which is entirely irrelevant once past a certain stage, and completely wrecking at any point prior - that’s stupid gimmicks and doesn’t add anything meaningful to the game.

See, that’s a base point. Why would you ever do that? Do you really want to encourage doing fullscreen HBs? Will that even cause it to become a viable tool? No. It will make your game stronger against characters who can’t punish headbutt (which are already pretty buttfucked) and it will give retarded online fullscreen special spamming Hondas a better tool. In no way, shape or form is buffing a fullscreen random special going to help the character (and if it does, the character is bollocks and should be deleted).

Actually I think most complaints are about Ryu (because one meets him in every match) and Blanka. But again, this doesn’t even matter. I’m not saying “Gief is OP at a low level, nerf Gief” or “I can’t handle Gen jumping around with crossup crane forward, Capcom fix pls”. I’m saying that <one has to keep lowlevel play in mind>. It’s something Capcom is very poor at (or deliberately doesn’t do), which causes lowlevel SF to not even have half a resemblance of highlevel one - the only game where I see this to such an extend.
The base example being the AAs - if you don’t have an invincible one, you a) don’t deal damage and b) have to learn like 60 different AA timings (depending on jumparcs and normal/special used) to an extend that you hit over 85% of AAs - or it’s not worth it. That means until you hit these 85%, the entire game is just everybody jumping with 0% spacing, footsies, anything.
I’d like retarded gimmicks (Dictator fullscreen headstomp/DR “mixup” - what’s that there for? - and no, I don’t lose against that) to either be completely removed, or to carry a substantial risk (eg in chess I can play a shitty gambit opening to try to outgimmick my opponent. If he doesn’t know it, he’s gonna have a very hard time. If he does, I lose - now to compare with SF; if my opponent knows this gimmick I take 50-150 damage generally, and if he doesn’t - I win, or at least deal half+ his life bar in damage before he figures out how to beat it). Why can Ibuki Kunai after her Ex SRK? What USE is that, other than to fuck somebody up who doesn’t know she can do it, and cause him to waste time later after frustratingly losing to a trashcan to sit in training mode and figure out one can focus? Why does Chun have a j.fierce that hits twice, and high both times? How often is a pro going to be caught by that? How many new players are throwing their pad/stick against a wall because it’s dumb useless shit that’s there for no reason other than to piss people off who don’t know this specific gimmick?
And if I can’t have that, I’d at least prefer a characters strengths to be buffed rather than tacking extra damage on stuff which is currently useless at highlevel play but already wrecking lowlevel one.

I already noted, don’t take me too serious. I don’t like him, so I pick on him.

I have no issue with Honda getting buffed. I have an issue with Honda getting buffed in strange ways (see above, damage buff on fullscreen headbutts?) and strong characters (Adon, Fei) getting buffs while weaker chars (Ibuki, Sakura) don’t get buffs because you don’t like them.

Also Genki is extremely conservative and calls every match 5-5 :stuck_out_tongue:

The question is, more competitive for our current list, or more competitive after the buffs you give other chars?

Juri is in the giant mid tier and probably around #15-#20 (list has her as #22, that’s cool too). So, what does she need? Nothing, really. Mid tier is balanced, after all. Now, I could give her some conservative buffs that would give her a better shot at entering the T10. More competitive now. But if you at the same time buff Honda, Guile and Sakura grossly (theoretical case) she’s actually not half as competitive as before.
So, do I post my buffs with potential buffs to other characters already in mind? Or do I post them in a way that she’d land on shared #1 in the current list if no other char was altered in any way? Do I take matchups in mind at all (eg do I say "I can’t buff her s.f.MK because that’d make her matchup against Dan 9-1)? etc
Or do I just post a list of possible changes she could use maybe and you decide what you’d like to put in cause it fits with the buffs to other chars and what would be too much?

  • HB: why did capcom buff Ryu’s hadouken to 70 dmg ? It’s the same thing. What’s the purpose ? Hb in Super dealed 160 dmg. I only returned it to 150 dmg (10 dmg buff). And is important, because well placed Hbs are still effective and they add to the overall damage, which Honda really needs, because like I explained earlier, he doesn’t have a huge punish combo, nor a combo into ultra, nor a good okizeme. Meaning, he needs to deal damage abare (I think this is how it is called).
    But if this bothers you so much, I can try to give damage to something less…spammable (I wonder what do you think of Ken’s shoryukens online). Maybe add a little more damage to EX Hands. I’ll see.
  • I’m open for better sugestions on how to buff Honda.
  • I think you are thinking too much and this gets me confused :D. If she wouldn’t need anything then she would be top tier, not mid tier. And if she really doesn’t need anything then she’s really good, and we don’t give her anything. The idea is to be stronger, more competitive, maybe to be able to win tourneys. And of course you take into consideration buffs other characters receive. Or maybe she is just really good and underplayed and doesn’t really need anything. Others doesn’t seem to have a problem to know what their character needs. The idea is to put up a list with changes. Then we take a good look at it, and see if it needs adjusted - more buffs to some, less to others. Basically you don’t need to have a perfect one from the first take.
  • Ibuki (again): I said (I don’t know how many times) one of the primary reasons I would like an update is to tone down the vortex. It would be really ironic to try to tone down the vortex and then buff Ibuki. And no, Abel is in no way in the same league as Ibuki (no matter what Juicebox says - he also thinks Abel is low tier :wink: btw). It’s the same reason I only gave 1 buff to Fuerte, despite him being low tier. But it seems nobody mind that.
    But since you really think Ibuki is such a victim according to my buff list, then I will give her back the damage she had in Super. I will also add more buffs for Fuerte since he is low tier and needs them (maybe Super Ultra 2, and buff his damage)
    Sakura - I have some ideas for her (I took them from her forums - they made a thread with buff wishes .

Actually I’m happy Infiltration thinks too we need another update. Maybe we gonna get it after all. :rolleyes:
Maybe Capcom will take into consideration oru sugestions, and not his :D.
I mean, Rolento ?? then why do you need sfxTk for ?
And I think we won’t be seeing SF5 very soon, not afte the debacle that was SFxTK

I wish dedicated AA specials would do their job better and not get stuffed/trade so often. Jumping in is way too easy for a lot of characters.



!!!

Abare is the ability to deal damage off random hits (converting pokes into more than the 50 damage they do).
That has little to nothing to do with doing a fullscreen headbutt and praying it hits.

My point is simple: Doing a fullscreen headbutt will ALWAYS suck against any character that can punish it, because you can’t use it as a punish option (so it’s always just going to be a random special). It doesn’t matter whether that thing deals 50,100,150 or 200 damage - it will always be a shitty option.
The only cases where you’re gonna use fullscreen headbutts are 1) against characters that can’t punish them 2) If your opponent is a trashcan and you’re an online scrub - in both these cases fullscreen HB is rather too strong than too weak.
You can’t ever make this into a viable option - in fact, you shouldn’t. If you made it viable (say, it deals 1000 damage, or you drastically reduce its recovery) then his playstyle would be completely dorked and deteriorate to run to fullscreen, do random HBs, pray. You don’t want that.

This is actually a good example of where something makes sense even though it derps on baddies. Shoryu is an AA tool, a combo option and a reversal. If you make this bad (eg reduce damage to half), it would severely hurt Kens at the highest level. Since you don’t balance directly for online scrubs but just keep them in mind, nerfing Shoryu would be a bad solution.
That’s the same case as Zangief. He is completely OP at lowlevel play by his character design - he gets in he wins, and keeping him out only works as long as you don’t do mistakes. Mistakes are frequent the lower you get, so Gief gets stronger. But frickling around with him would make him obsolete in competitive play, so you don’t

However, fullscreen headbutt serves no purpose at highlevel play. It’s just a tool to fuck up bad people. And you want to buff that. The +10 damage would have it still suck donkeyballs at high level, and make online Honda more obnoxious.

Simplest solution: Better metergain on stuff to allow for more ExHand combos and have the strong Super present more often.

Hmmm. You might have a point with the HBs. I’ll try to find other ways to improve him. I drop the damage for H and EX, but keep it for L HB - that’s only against AA (and capcom nerfed it with 30 dmg :().

I just started playing this game, so I may be out of my element but…for Oni

  1. He should be able to FADC is shoryuken on block, other shotos can…so why not him?

  2. Why is his stun only 950 (below average)…it isn’t like he is an overpowered character, make it an even 1000

  3. Better recovery on his air dashes so he can use them in more various ways

  4. Demon palm should be a true overhead, I mean he jumps then comes right down on opponent’s head…how can that realistically be blocked low?

  5. This may be stretching it…but seeing as he is Akuma completely absorbed into the dark side, give him a violent command throw, like repeatedly slamming the opponent into the ground before tossing him/her.

I’d like to see guy get more damage for all the work he has to do.

I’m pretty sure v2012 is the last SF4 update we’re going to get. SF5 is still a ways away. Even if development started today we wouldn’t see it until 2-3 years from now at least. SF4 can last until then. Rather than over-saturate the market (which is kind of happening anyway) let people get hungry for something new and then release it.

Maybe. But just in case :razzy:: the buff list - I included your sugestions:

Spoiler

First, some explanations:
while v.2012 is very good, I still think there are a couple of things to improve. I don’t like the hyperdominance of the vortex/divekick characters. This is a personal preference, but I would like the game to be a little more ST like. Some characters should receive some nerfs (Viper, Rufus, Cammy, etc), some things they have are just plain stupid. But I don’t like nerfing characters, so my take is - leave these characters as they are, but buff everyone else, so they have a fair chance. That’s why I buffed even those characters considered good.
So basically I buffed everyone bar those way too good.
I tried to make the game more ST like
Unerfed pointless nerfs - It seems capcom loves the nerf bat a little too much. While sometimes they were deserved, other times they were pointless.
I tried to make the characters stronger and more interesting to play
I searched the characters subforum to see what people wants - but sometimes I didn’t find anything, so I tried to give them something.

Abel

  • Falling Sky: reduce the start up with 1 frame (4-5-8-5)
  • C.O.D.: reduce the start up with 2 frames (12-14-15-14)
  • Super: give slightly more range
  • Tornado Throw: +10 damage for each version - 170-190-210-210
  • Ultra 2: reduce the start up with 1 frame
  • Wheel Kick: reduce the start up with 1 frame (19-23-26-16)

Adon

  • H. Jaguar Kick: +10 damage (140 - like in AE)
  • EX Rising Jaguar: +10 damage (170)
  • EX Jaguar Tooth: +10 damage (130)

Akuma

  • Nothing, he is really strong. No nerfs, though.

Balrog

Give back his damage from Super (pointless nerfs):

  • Ju.f. HP: +20 damage (110)
  • Ju.f. HK: +10 damage (110)
  • cr. HP: +20 damage (110)
  • Dash Swing Blow (overhead): reduce the start up with 2 frames
  • Dash Straight: +2 hitstun (0/+1/+1/+4)
  • Dash Low Straight: +10 damage each version (100-110-120-120)

Blanka

  • EX Electricity: +3 frames of invincibility
  • Ultra 2 (kick): reduce the start up with 2 frames (10)
  • Ultra 2 (punch): slight buff the hitbox for better AA
  • Blanka Ball: H: knockdown leads to juggle state how ex does now, this would allow 2 meter hard knockdown combos or extended combos
  • EX: does more hitstun at all ranges instead of a knockdown, making it safer on hit, and also allowing for an fadc into an extended ground combo.

Cammy

  • Nothing, she is really strong. No nerfs, though

Chun Li

  • Backflip LK: - reduce the start up with 1 frame (11)
  • slightly buff the hitbox
  • Kikoken: reduce the start up with 1 frame (13-11-9-9)
  • H. Legs: +1 blockstun (0)
  • Hazanshu: reduce the start up with 1 frame (22-24-25-25)
  • Headstomp: +10 damage (70)
  • L. Hazanshu: +10 damage (100)
  • Ultra 2: +20 damage (350)
  • EX Legs: +10 damage (170)
  • MP: +10 damage (70)
  • EX SBK: buff the hitbox for better AA

Cody

  • Crack Kick: slightly raise the hurtbox
  • EX Criminal Upper: +3 invincibility frames (7)
  • Knife: keep during tech throw
  • Zonk Knuckle: forward movement slightly increased for all non-ex versions
  • cl LP: hitbox adjusted to prevent whiffing on reeling opponents
  • cr. MK: slide hurtbox adjusted to make sliding under Sakura/Chun Li fireballs possible, distance traveled increased slightly. Frame advantage changed for earliest possible hit from -6F / -3F to -7F / -4F to compensate for increased range. Should retain similar hit advantage to before it done from farther away.
  • Bad Stone: reduce the start up with 2 frames for all versions (27-27-27-22)

C. Viper

  • Nothing, she is really strong. No nerfs, though

Dan

  • Ultra 2: +1 invincibility frame (9)
  • Ultra 1: reduce the start up with 1 frame (9)
  • H. Danku: +20 damage (150)
  • Air EX Danku: +50 stun (300)
  • EX Danku: more frame advantage on hit
  • Mk/Hk Danku: have hitbox that hits vertically down better so they don’t whiff on crouchers sometimes
  • Air L Danku: reduce the recovery with 1 frame (16)
  • Far LK: reduce the recovery with 1 frame (8)

Dee Jay

  • Ultra 1: reduce the start up with 2 frames (10)
  • LK Sobat: - airborne state
  • throw invincible
  • Air Slash: reduce the start up with 1 frame (11-11-11-12)
  • cr. HK: travel more
  • MGU: needs tweaking. It’s common for all the punches to hit except the last one.
  • EX MGU: ex mgu needs less push back on hit because dash U2 (which is already difficult to land) sometimes whiff on characters like Adon.
  • Ultra 2: less recovery on hit.
  • far HP: +2 blockstun (-7), always launch on CH.
  • far HK: reduce start up with 2 frames (9)

Dhalsim

Give back his damage from Super (pointless nerfs):

  • HP: +10 damage (85)
  • MK: +10 damage (70)
  • cr. MK: +10 damage (70)
  • Ju. HP: +5 damage (85)
  • b. HP: +10 dmg (120)
  • b. LK: +10 dmg (40)
  • b. MK: +5 dmg (70)
  • b. HK: +20 (110)
  • cr. b. MP: +10 dmg (70)
  • cr.b. HP: +15 dmg (100)
    (yeah, he lost that much damage)
  • Yoga Fire: reduce the start up with 1 frame (13)
  • Yoga Spear: reduce the start up with 1 frame (11)
  • Yoga Mummy: reduce the start up with 1 frame (12)

Dudley

  • F+ MK: buff the hitbox
  • HK: buff the hitbox
  • cr. LP: buff the hitbox
  • F+ HK: - fix the reel back bug
  • slightly reduce the hurtbox
  • cr. HK: reduce the start up with 1 frame (13)
  • MGB: + 1 hitstun for M, H (+2/+1)
  • SSB: buff the hitbox for the normal version.

E. Honda

Give back part of his damage from Super (pointless nerfs):

  • far HP: +20 dmg (100) - it was 120 in Super
  • Oicho: +20 dmg for L,M,H (180-190-200) - back to Super values
  • Headbutt: +10 dmg for L when AA (110)
  • H Hands: +14 dmg (119) - it was 140 in Super
  • Ultra 2: reduce the start up with 1 frame (opponent cannot jump after screen freeze)
  • Shikofumi: reduce the start up with 8 frames (22)
  • EX Hands: - +14 dmg (154)
  • +1 hitstun (5)
  • buff the hitbox (expanded for better connection)
  • M Hands/ ext. M Hands: - buff the hitbox for better connection
  • reduce the pushback (so Honda gets a little closer to the opponent)
  • reduce the hitstun for M Hands with 1 frame (+7)

El Fuerte

  • Quesadilla Bomb: reduce the start up with 3 frames (14)
  • cl HP: +10 dmg (100)

Evil Ryu

  • Teleport: needs some improvement. Either extend the invincibility a few more frames, shorten the recovery, or increase the distance traveled. As it is, it’s not much of an escape tool, which is to say that it’s not much of anything. It doesn’t need to be as good as Akuma’s, but using E.Ryu’s teleport successfully should not only happen because it’s so terrible that the opponent never expects E.Ryu to use it, so he can actually, very rarely, get away with it.
  • Red Fireball: reduce the recovery for L with 2 frames, for M with 3 frames, for H with 5, and for Ex with 2 (51-58-64-51)
  • Axe Kick: - H Axe Kick: hits overhead
  • L Axe Kick: + 2 block stun (-5)
  • Ex Axe Kick: gets some strike innvincibility frames
  • +10 dmg for each version of Axe kick: 110-90-140-170.
  • H axe kick: +50 stun (200)

Fei Long

  • M Flame Kick: +10 dmg (130)
  • cr. MP: +10 dmg (65)
  • H Chicken Wing: +20 dmg (120) - it did 140 in AE
  • Chicken Wing: hit connect after a crossup
  • cl MP: C.W. canceled from MP connects with the opponent

Gen

  • Jyasen: - reduce charge time with 5 frames (55)
  • slightly faster
  • Crane Ultra 1: - reduce the start up with 1 frame (10)
  • on hit: +3 advantage
  • Hyakurenko: +10 dmg each version (90-135-135-173)

Gouken

  • b. Throw: deals no gray dmg
  • Gohadouken: - reduce the start up with 1 frame (16)
  • reduce the charge with 5 frames (63)
  • cr. MP: +1 hitstun (+2)
  • L Sengukoshoha: +10 dmg (100)
  • EX Sengukoshoha: Increase speed so that the hitconfirm st cl mp cr hp ex palm is not spacing dependent at as long as the st cl mp hits
  • Kongoshin (normal): +160 dmg (160)
  • EX Kongoshin: Fix activation bug. EX counter has had occurences where the hit is absorbed, and activation flash and sound go off, but gouken just acts like the move whiffed
  • Tatsumaki: Make all versions of tatsu lock on effect on the first hit
  • cl MP: xtend hit box so that it doesn’t whiff on opponent hit reel animation during certain jump ins.

Guile

Give back his damage from Super (pointless nerfs):

  • Flash Kick: +20 dmg L, +10 dmg M, +20 dmg H (130-140-160)
  • Spinning Back Knuckle: +20 dmg (120)
  • Reverse Spin Kick: +20 dmg (120)
  • Ultra 2: +50 dmg (350) - it did 420 in Super
  • Sonic Boom: builds +5 more meter (15) - it did 20 in Super

Guy

  • Ninja Sickle: reduce the start up with 2 frames (9)
  • cl HK: Adjust the hitbox so it hits/can be blocked by all crouching characters
  • cl HP: Adjust the hitbox so that it hits/can be blocked by all crouching characters
  • nj HK: Adjust the juggle properties so that he can juggle a run-slide afterwards anywhere on screen, regardless if it hits twice or not.
  • MP: +1 blockstun (-3)
  • Ultra 2: slightly more range

Hakan

  • EX dry Oil Rocket: - 1,20 range
  • Oil Rocket: reduce recovery with 3 frames (53)
  • f HK: +1 blockstun (-4)
  • dry EX slide+followup: goes a bit farther and faster
  • Oil Dive: reduce recovery with 3 frames (54)
  • Starting Oil: +1 more second (11)
  • Oil Shower: +1 more second (7-10-13-16)

Ibuki

  • Neck Breaker: + 10 dmg for normal versions (130-130-130)
  • Kunai: +10 dmg for each normal version (40-40-40)
  • trajectory is altered, traveling more horizontaly than vertically. It will be more difficult to mix up with it after a kd (and more risky), but kunai will become more usefull as a standard projectile.

Juri

  • s. LP: hits all crouching characters: Makes her bnb 2f rather than 1f.
  • s.far MP: special cancellable: Would give her BnB +10 damage and give her another useful normal (it’s such a waste that this fancy looking normal is so useless!)
  • neutral jump HP: hitbox improved: Gives her some more antiair tools to work with
  • Fuhajin: M: pushback increased: Now a better zoning tool (currently one p.much never uses this because it kicks away our best pokes and it can be ducked under as well as jumped over so it’s just worse than the l.version)
  • H: loses airborne frames: Makes [H.Fuha xx FADC > U2] much easier. Doesn’t fill any purpose other than to annoy people anyways.
  • H. Senpusha: gets additional frame advantage on hit: Makes [H.Wheel xx FADC > U2] work

Ken

  • cr. HK: - reduce the start up with 1 frame (7)
  • reduce the blockstun with 1 frame (-7)

Makoto

  • Ex Karakusa: buff to AE range
  • EX Fukiage: +10 dmg (130)
  • ju. MK: slight buff to the hitbox (for better connection)

M. Bison

  • Devil’s Reverse: reduce the aerial start up with 5 frames
  • Psycho Crusher: +10 dmg each (130-140-150-160)
  • cl HP: reduce pushback
  • cl Mk: reduce pushback
  • Get rid of the extra frame to tech his throws
  • EX Psycho Crusher: go airborne immediately after invincibility wears off

Oni

  • Demon Slash: add +1 block stun for M (-3), and +3 block stun for H, Ex (-5/-7)
  • F+HP: buff the hitbox
  • F+MK: reduce the start up with 1 frame (12)
  • B+MP and F+HK: are able to combo after an FADC’d Shoryuken on hit
  • Ultra 2: change the input into QCFx2 + KKK
  • Air Dash: reduce the landing recovery with 1 frame (10-10-15)
  • Ultra 1: buff the hitbox
  • a larger cancel-window for Air Ultra 1 after Air Dashes

Rose

  • Ultra 1: reduce the start up with 2 frames (10)
  • Soul Spark: - L: reduce recovery with 3 frames (49)
  • L: +3 block/hitstun (-9/-5)
  • reduce start up with 3 frames for M (19), and 3 frames for H (26)
  • EX Soul Spiral: reduce the start up with 2 frames (11)
  • cr. HK: reduce the start up with 1 frame (8)
  • cr. LP: reduce recovery with 1 frame (7)

Rufus

  • Nothing, he is really strong. No nerfs, though

Ryu

  • f HP: - +20 dmg (120)
  • reduce the start up with 1 frame (16)
  • Hadouken: reduce the start up with 1 frame (12-12-12-11)
  • EX Hadouken: +10 dmg (110)
  • cr LK: +1 blockstun (0)

Sagat

  • High T. S.: reduce the start up with 1 frame (10)
  • Low T. S.: +10 dmg each (70-70-70-130)
  • cl LP: reduce the start up with 1 frame (5)
  • LK: becomes special cancelable
  • Tiger Knee: +10 dmg each (130-150-170-190)
  • H Tiger Uppercut AC: +10 dmg (190)

Sakura

  • Ultra 2 ppp: reduce the start up with 1 frame (11)
  • Hadouken: reduce the start up with 1 frame.

Seth

  • Nothing, he is really strong. No nerfs

T. Hawk

  • Condor Spire: - reduce the start up with 2 frames for regular (18) and 1 for Ex (14)
  • +1 hitstun (-4/-5/-7)
  • travel a little farther
  • Tomahawk B.: reduce the start up with 1 frame (4-5-7-4)
  • +10 dmg for each version (140-160-170-140)
  • Condor Dive: on kd lands closer to the opponent
  • Mexican T.: +10 dmg for L (160) and H (240) versions
  • cr. MK: +10 dmg (80)
  • Ultra 2: +20 dmg (470)

Vega

  • cr MP: +10 dmg (70)
  • EX FBA Izuna: +20 dmg (200)
  • Scarlet Terror: - slightly buff the hitbox for better AA
  • L,M start 1 frame faster (6)
  • EX +5 invincibility frames
  • FBA: slightly faster
  • Super: slightly faster

Yang

  • cr Lk: +10 dmg (30)
  • cr MP: +10 dmg (80)
  • Tourazan: L +15 dmg (75), M +15 dmg (75), H +20 dmg (80)
  • H Byakko S.: +10 dmg (150), chip and stun like in AE
  • Target combo 2: +20 dmg (150)
  • Lk: reduce start up with 2 frames (3)

Yun

  • cr MP: +10 dmg (60)
  • Target C.4: +10 dmg (143)
  • reduce 2nd hit recovery by 1 frame (-5)
  • Tetsuzanko: H +10 dmg (110), Ex +10 dmg (140)
  • Kobokushi: M +10 dmg (150), H +10 dmg (150)
  • M Nishokyaku: +10 dmg (120)

Zangief

  • cr LP: +10 dmg (30)
  • EX Green Hand: - kd on hit

Giving Cody 3F invincibility on EX Ruffian is a bit pointless the move has an 11F startup and no invincibility on the startup as it is. 3F would not make a difference at all. All the invincibility of the move is during the active period and slightly into the recovery period and only against projectiles.

Cody needs to be able to tech AND throw not just tech throws while using the knife. Even then I honestly think that the knife gives up too much to gain too little.

Here is what you lose:
Cody’s best pressure and frame trap tool f-MP
Two of Cody’s best anti air normals (B-MP and far HP. The HP with knife doesn’t have a hitbox that is good for anti airing, and the MP with knife despite looking like it should hit over his head like Zangiefs standing LP only hits directly in front of Cody.)
c.MP and c.HP as whiff punish tools (whiff punishing with c.LK is your ONLY option because Cody has only 2 cancelable normals when using the knife, close s.MK which requires being close and is -5F on block and c.LK which can’t be chained, can’t be comboed out of, and only does 20dmg on it’s own. Your best whiff punishes are going drop from around 230dmg to around 160dmg while using the knife.)
Cody’s focus attack is key to both his offense and defense due the long reach and armor. That is lost.
Neutral Jump HP with knife isn’t nearly as good with knife, though forward jump HP is better.
The majority of Cody’s frame traps with the knife are weak and lead to very little even if they opponent takes the bait since Cody can’t cancel any of his knife hits and other than his lights most of the moves are too slow to combo even after a counthit.
Knife throw loses to everything (it counts as a strike but can be punched out of the air like Ibuki’s kunai and loses to fireballs like Ibuki’s kunai but unlike the Kunai it has a 26F startup.)
The ability to tech or throw without dropping the knife

The things you gain with the knife:
Slightly longer reaching normals that also have larger reaching hurtboxes
An amazing anti air with c.HP
A 3F crouching normal (c.LP)
A stupidly low amount of chip damage (the knife attacks only do 10% chip on block while every other move in the game does 25% except for Ryu’s fireball in AE2012 which does 22% chip because they upped the base damage from 60 to 70 but didn’t up the chip from 15 to 17)
Knife throw works basically like an EX Hadoken or Tiger shot and puts the opponent in a jugglable state.
A strong jump-in with forward jump HP

Now not only are you losing out on a TON of things that Cody needs. You have to actively seek out to do this and it is easily removed. This isn’t like Vega’s claw where everything Cody does normally he just does better with the knife and he can easily get the knife back. Cody loses the knife in 1 hit, and you can very easily spend the majority of the round with the knife not even on screen, and Cody doesn’t have a good walk speed or mobility AT ALL so it’s not like he can easily walk over to the knife without being obvious or losing ground in footsies.

With how much effort is needed to obtain the knife and keep the knife it should be a lot stronger than it is. The knife should be something that isn’t just an afterthought but a unique aspect of Cody that is something Cody wants to obtain and the opponent wants to actively make sure to keep him in a position where he can’t pick it up (like you would do with Hakan trying to Oil or if Vega lost his Mask or Claw.)

I’m not 100% sure what all the Knife NEEDS but as it stands, it’d need a lot of changes for it to ever be something more than a gimmick.

I’ll write up some more later, but that just covers a couple of things about Cody IMO.

Well, my idea is, giving him 3 more FB invincibility frames that will cover part of his start up, will make ex ruffian better against projectiles (because invincibility frames will start faster, from the 8 frame, not 11 like now). I don’t think it’s resonable to give him projectile invincibility to cover all his start up, that would be too much.

Regarding knife, well, cody players considered that keeping knife while teching throws is a pretty good buff, and many requested it. Taking into acount the buffs knife already receive, it should be quite good. Again, I don’t think it’s resonable to buff the knife even more.

You can consider the buffs the knife already received and then consider the fact it still isn’t used. Even in matchups where throw teching isn’t as much of a factor. Being able to tech throws without dropping the knife is the most important buff to the knife that they could give it but it’s hardly the only buff it needs

Plus overall only 2 of the knife buffs were useful AT ALL, c.HP 7F startup was massively good. s.LP +6F on hit was nice but ultimately it needed to be +7F because of the startup of all of Cody’s normals (c.HP/c.MP/c.HK/c.MK all 7F startup, only thing it allowed was a 1F link with s.MP with knife otherwise pointless.)

s.HP is now +3F on hit? Great, too bad you not only can’t combo into it, but unless you do it point blank completely raw you can’t combo OUT of it (1blocked jab and the s.HP on hit will push you too far for a c.LK) even on hit you can only combo into c.LK because c.LP’s reach is JUST short enough that most characters reeling animation makes it hit too late and is blocked.

jumping MP’s hitbox even after the buff is still smaller than Cody’s jab hitbox without knife. AND it’s only got 3 active frames. Its actually one of the worst jumping normals in the game (not THE worst but certainly in the top 10)

s.MP going from 1 hit to 2 hit is good and bad. It means it breaks armor now, but it also does less damage on counterhit and gains no frame advantage on counterhit because only the first hit counts as a counterhit not the second. So instead of getting a 100dmg +5F on hit attack you get a 90dmg +3F on hit attack when you counterhit.

It’s a simple thing when you break it down. Without reliability (you don’t always have the knife, it is easily removed, it requires effort and potentially bad situations to attempt to get.) you need to make something worth getting. Even if the knife WAS as good as not having the knife (which it isn’t even close) the unreliability factor would mean no one would use it.

And even ignoring that, the simple matter is that until you are getting something equal to or better than you are losing it is simply a bad choice. You lose 90% of Cody’s frame traps, whiff punishes, combos, and defensive tools to gain an unreliable tool that doesn’t even do the job very well at either pressuring the opponent or as a footsie tool.

The knife needs A LOT of changes if they ever hope to have it be considered something worth using.

I’d rather her have a stronger damage conversion rate through being able to at least link into meterless damage (and have the meter for more critical situations). I don’t think increasing damage on her normals is going to help much because she can’t consistently be competitive through playing the poking/zoning game alone imo (and a good bit of Chun players feel this way too), that really only works against very impatient players or characters designed to have issues dealing with zoning (which gets rare at high level). People can block that forever and pick the good spots to get damage and suddenly she’s at a life deficit and they don’t need to chase her anymore.
She still has to go in and open people up occasionally to get damage and right now that’s high risk low reward for her due to poor bnb damage. A good majority of the cast can at least convert light or medium attacks (like shoto cr. mp) into a meterless knockdown and decent damage. She can’t do this, so at least being able to throw in another cr. medium kick or fierce punch to get some extra damage and meter would help a lot.

As far as her pressure in using legs from heavy attacks go, it’s still high risk and not as reliable as trying to pressure with Honda or Gen hands. Cr. hp xx legs needs her to be too close for a 7f starter and can’t really be improved without breaking her. Cl. Hk pushes back too far to keep it as safe pressure. It’s just not very reliable when she needs to move forward. A better cr. mk to compliment her lights would be imo.

Another Chun user also thinks her cl. mp being changed to single hit with +2/+5 would be good for this and I don’t disagree.

i guess we should try to make a complete change list of our reasonable changes to try to push interest in an update. There is also a petition going on. (Also along with this request thingy can we try to get maybe 3-4 stages added to the game or something…)
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/wantae2013/signatures/page/7

Lowering the recovery of tatsu is hopeless lol. That thing whiffs you are going to eat full punish, and against certain characters, they even have time to build meter before punishing.

I would also rather exchange damage on lp to go just a bit of distance, like just enough to clip anyone focusing on a max range cr mp cancel.

Everything else I would agree with. They should have never nerfed back throw. The grey damage pretty much makes any non basic follow up useless because of scaling. You still get specific setups but they pretty much cut the balls off.

Here are some changes Cody could use IMO:

Crack kick made airborne from 8F to 25F just like it is in SFxT and like it was intended to be but never made in SF4 (they set everything but didn’t check the “airborne” box on state settings.)

Backwards walk speed increased from 0.024 to 0.028. Currently Cody is one of the slowest walking characters in the game (Only Hakan, Dhalsim, Makoto, and Sagat walk slower and all of them have better mobility through moves such as Sagats f-LK kara cancel or Makoto’s better dashes/rush punch/axe kick or Hakan’s oiled dashes) with fairly low mobility options (his MK ruffian only goes about the same distance as a LK Tatsu and all his non-ex ruffians have no invincbility are unsafe unless max range, whiff punishable, and can’t be FADCed except for HK which whiffs on crouchers)

Backdash recovery time reduced 4F (Currently you can cancel his backdash into a reversal move and cut off the last 3F reducing it from 26F to 23F but if you just want to backdash - block it is a 26F backdash with the same travel distance as an un-oiled Hakan backdash and less airborne frames after invincibility wears off)

Badstone startup reduced proportional to the recovery added. MP Badstone startup 29F - 27F startup. HP Badstone 29F - 25F startup. Damage increased from 50 to 60 for all badstones.

Hammer Hook overhead is now -5F on block +4F on hit standing +3F on hit crouching. (It is one of the most unsafe on block already, and has one of the longest recoveries on whiff of all overheads, and the animation for it is VERY obvious.)

c.MK slide hurtbox adjusted to make sliding under Sakura/Chun Li fireballs possible, distance traveled increased slightly. Frame advantage changed for earliest possible hit from -6F / -3F to -7F / -4F to compensate for increased range. Should retain similar hit advantage to before it done from farther away.

fj.LK hitbox adjusted to make crossup possibilities more consistent

close s.LP hitbox adjusted to prevent whiffing on reeling opponents

Zonk forward movement slightly increased for all non-ex versions.

+3F strike invincibility to EX Criminal Upper. Still loses to crossups, neutral jumps, safe jumps (7F startup) and is massively unsafe on whiff or block.

Knife changes:

While holding the knife Cody’s walk speed increases from 0.038 / 0.028 to 0.043 / 0.03 (SLIGHTLY slower than Ryu)

s.LP/c.LP/c.MP/s.MP(first hit) are special cancel able.

c.LP with knife hit/block stun advantage increased from 0F on block +3F on hit to +1F on block +4F on hit. chip damage increased from 4 to 7
c.MP with knife startup reduced from 7F to 6F causes less pushback on block or hit, frame advantage changed from -2F / +1F to 0F / +3F on hit/block chip damage increased from 8 to 14
c.HP with knife damage reduced from 120 to 110 chip damage increased from 12 to 21

s.LP with knife chip damage increased from 4 to 7 hit advantage changed from +2 / +6 to +3 / +7
s.MP with knife now can connect both hits on an airborne opponent. Pushback on block reduced, hit stun increased from 0F / +3F to 0F / +4F chip damage increased from 44 to 77
s.HP with knife pushback on hit or block reduced. hitbox raised up slightly, hurtbox lowered slightly, should function similar to s.HP without knife for anti airing now. Active frames increased from 3F to 4F recovery frames reduced from 17F to 16F. Hit advantage changed from -2F / +3F to -2F / +4F chip damage increased from 12 to 21

Jumping LP with knife chip damage increased from 4 to 7
Jumping MP with knife active frames increased from 3F to 5F. Now puts the opponent in a jugglable state on air hit. Chip damage increased from 8 to 14
Jumping HP with knife Chip damage increased from 12 to 21

Knife throw startup reduced from 26F to 20F, passes through projectiles (does NOT remove projectile just goes through it). Still can be knocked out of the air by strikes. Stun increased from 100 to 125.

Cody can now perform f-MP with knife
Cody can now throw and tech without dropping the knife
Cody can now focus attack with knife. However EX Focus cancel drops knife.

ONI:

Can cancel air normals into an Lp.Air dash ( i can dream can’t i?)
Lk. tatsu can now juggle into gorai shoryuken ( this i can live without, though it would allow him to get some nasty damage and set-ups midscreen)
lk. Slash now +1 on block, with +1 more start-up ( this he needs)
all versions of the ground pound have lower body invincibility on start-up from the first active frame till the the 5 active frame( or 4th, im tired of getting beat by jab)
reduced start-up for his electric fireball
make ultra 1 in the air useful for something, idc what it is.

Christ Allrighty apparently Cody needs blanket buffs lol