Official SRK Ultra SF4 Rebalance Request Thread

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><br></div></blockquote><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/50800/Emanuelb">Emanuelb</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>
<blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/21184/Genistar">Genistar</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/7984638#Comment_7984638" class=“QuoteLink”><span class=“ArrowLink”>»</span></a></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I kinda think guy is higher in the mid tier part of the tier list for some reason… The current tier list needs to be trashed and redone imo…</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
So just because <i>you kinda</i> think “<i>for some reason</i>” that guy is upper mid tier, the tier list needs to be redone. Great.<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>

Its not just guy some characters match ups need to be redone. <div><br></div><div>Also i was looking at the chun-li changes to allowing her to do cr.lp to b+mk. I think its a nifty thing for her  as her bnb would then  cause a knockdown.</div>

regardless if cammy gets too many hate or not. It’s not this reason why she’s getting those nerfs. IMO those changes mean nothing. She will still do devastating damage, have the ability to stun characters with 2 combos, etc.  I dont see how making Cammy’s health a bit less and bit less frame advantage on her EX dive kick will make her that weak. Her tools are still there. 6F less advantage on block and hit ? woopie-doo she’s still on frame advantage. The worse she can be with this change is +5 on block if teyah’s cammy dive kick chart is correct.<br>

Some characters have polarizing match ups by design, as Oil said. Seth and Gouki may have been balanced around low/health stun but they were also designed to do (almost) everything well. That translates into characters with polarized aspects (Dhalsim or Zangief ie) having bad match ups against them regardless. The only possible way to nerf them significantly is to just make them suck or be massively inconsistent (which held Seth back for a while, Gouki for a while less.) Buffing everyone on the bottom and nerfing the top is essentially the Capcom way of doing things and it sucks shit.<br><br>The whole idea of making an adjustment list sort of sucks shit when you’re told “the less changes, the better” anyway. I don’t think you can actually find a complete list of changes from any character going from Vanilla to Super. Capcom has never released all of the changes done when posting patch notes either (stealth nerfs/buffs/straight changes are present in AE and 2012 too - Capcom even stated that they wouldn’t list all changes.) Starting to ramble so I’ll just cut to what I’m trying to get at. A rebalance (if it happens) is going to suck if you try to apply half-ass logic. You can’t think “my character needs this to deal with his 7-3 match up” because that character has 38 other match ups affected by it to wildly varying degrees. If Capcom fixes just guard situations, a lot of match ups start to look very different without any other changes too (should probably operate on the assumption that they are going to fix it…if it happens.) Of course, the logic of “x has it, so why can’t I?” is probably the worst fucking thing you can think of. If every body has the same tools then you might as just be picking costumes instead of a character…there I go again. Well, I don’t want to play 2013 if it’s 2012 with tiny tweaks…<br><br>side note<br>buffing cammy’s spin knuckle is stupid in the sense described<br>A. it does nothing for her (still too slow, has other preferred options, still does what it does now)<br>B. it becomes broken (now its too fast, has weird frames on block, avoids stuff it couldn’t)<br><br>

Which is why I propose the only important change you could really make to seth without ruining the character would be to nerf his stun back to ssf4 levels.

Make spiral arrow knock further back so she lands in front of her opponent every time or increase the recovery on it so she doesn’t have enough time to jump behind. OR MAYBE people will stop quick rising everytime they get knocked down by Cammy to throw off her momentum.<br><br><br>“The only thing I think should be nerfed on Cammy is the stun on cr.hp.”<br><br>This is actually not a bad idea, this move is retarded fast (for a HP) and can be combo’d after and is safe on block. Your stun scaling is not that bad going from cr.HP > cr.MP > Special than cr.MP > cr.HP > Special since such a large amount of stun comes from the first hit<br>

<blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/22472/cerberusfx">cerberusfx</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”> The worse she can be with this change is +5 on block if teyah’s cammy dive kick chart is correct.<br></div>
</blockquote>

<span style=“font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><div><span style=“font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”>Where did you get worst at +5 on block with the proposed changes? </span></div></span><br style=“box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Helvetica, Arial; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><div><span style=“background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”>Cannon Strike Hit/Block Advantage (all heights) style=“background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”>Down below he himself writes:</span></font></span></div><div><span style=“color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”>“If you want to use these height comparisons for EX Cannon Strike numbers, then add <b>+7/+6 to hit/block</b> values and visualize Cammy glowing yellow and spinning.”</span><span style=“background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”><br></span></font></span></div><div><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”>So basically turning EX CS into non-EX CS w/the exception of doing it at any height and any jump. </span></font></div>

I honestly think for cammy, anything that is above the head should all be negative on block… for a dive kick.  It shouldn’t even be plus on block… Its just my opinion (even though i should attempt to anti air it.) if i block it at my head i should be able to punish it with at the very least a half assed combo. <div><br></div><div>As for seth we could like tone the stun down on some of his moves. Idk which ones…so i shouldn’t be commenting on him.</div>

<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>i agree why can she do full combos from the top of the screen? she has WAY too much frame advantage on block also. and why is nobody complaining about that weird cannon spike crossup thing(she does it towards one side but lands on the other)</span></font>

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/49222/Superstar">Superstar</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/22472/cerberusfx">cerberusfx</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”> The worse she can be with this change is +5 on block if teyah’s cammy dive kick chart is correct.<br><br><span style=“font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><div><span style=“font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”>Where did you get worst at +5 on block with the proposed changes? </span><br style=“box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Helvetica, Arial; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”></div></span><br><div><span style=“background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”>Cannon Strike Hit/Block Advantage (all heights) style=“background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”>Down below he himself writes:</span></font></span></div><div><span style=“color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”>“If you want to use these height comparisons for EX Cannon Strike numbers, then add <b>+7/+6 to hit/block</b> values and visualize Cammy glowing yellow and spinning.”</span><span style=“background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”><br></span></font></span></div><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”>So basically turning EX CS into non-EX CS w/the exception of doing it at any height and any jump. </span></font><br></div>
</blockquote><span style=“font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”></span><br><div><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”></span></font><br><span style=“font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”><span style=“font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”>ahh
thx for the info! I didn’t see that on his website so all I did was
replacing the frame advantages on block/hit from his chart (since on his
chart it’s writtent -2/+1 for regular, I replaced the numbers for EX
canon strike-6)<br>So I guess the +14/+18 for EX canon strike is when
she does it at the lowest level possible (or around that) on a standing,
regular sized opponent. </span></span><font color="#222222" face=“Helvetica, Arial” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 18px;”><font size=“2”><font size=“2”><br><font size=“2”><font size=“2”>It also means </font></font><font size=“2”>on block (front<font size=“2”>)</font> she is <font size=“2”>between +1 and <font size=“2”>+14<font size=“2”> and for hit she is between</font></font></font></font></font></font></span></font> +5 and +18. I think we can work something from there. Or maybe not. It all depends how people here looks at her<br></div></div></blockquote>

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”>1. Most of the buffs have been made to specifically to already help against characters like Cammy/Akuma/Seth/Viper with unforseen side effect of making MUs worse for Rufus/Yun/Yang. IE characters who rely on taking to the air. <div>2. This is why you can’t blindly look at frame data. Hit/block stun for her EX CS is for TKCS, IE lowest height. You can’t zomg +14 blockstun otherwise Seth’s tanden engine looks ridiculous if you only see +19/23 w/o context.</div><div>3. Reducing spinning knuckle is just as useless as reducing Viper’s recovery on U1(hyperbole). Either that or you change her into a character she wasn’t meant to be. </div><div>4. There’s a difference between broken, overpowered, and top tier. Being top tier does not automatically make one overpowered or broken. </div><div><br></div><div>If you want to make changes you have to know where you want to go. If you’re in the adamant no nerfs category, do you want to go for as much balance as possible or do you want to compress the gap? If it’s the former than the bottom tier will need a ton of buffs to be on par with the Cammies/Akumas etc or else you didn’t change much as far as usefulness in a tournament viability sense. You move them to mid-tier but so what, half the characters are still stronger than them so why would anybody want to use them?   </div></div>
</blockquote>

<br>Superstar, if I’m not mistaken, you are one of the proponents of balancing through nerfs, so you are one of the reason why I included those nerfs. Now you are disapointed that I followed your advice ?<br><br>guys, you need to decide what you want. When I posted the previous list, a lot of you complained that Cammy still needs nerfs regardless of what other character gets. Now that I included some slight nerfs, you don’t want them anymore ?<br><br>Regarding the quick spin knuckle - the buff was requested by cammy players.      <br>

Dan’s Super comes out OFTEN by accident. They could switch it to K instead of P and avoid the problem altogether.

<div>EB, the quick answer is -6 is a HUGE overnerf. In addition to the general buffing AAs theme, nerfing aerial moves becomes a double whammy. The long answer is down below:</div><div><br></div>The problem with balancing is we’re looking at it from the wrong POV. We shouldn’t be looking at it from what specific moves need to be changed/buffed/nerfed, or even how to change/nerf/buff certain strategies/tactics(AA/vortex etc), but where do we want to go. By that I mean there’s a few questions we need to ask before we even begin. <div>1) How balanced do you think the game is right now, and what do you mean by balance(amount of tournament viable characters?)? It’ll give us an idea of how little tweaks or how much of an overhaul is needed. </div><div>2) Q1 doesn’t mean much without answering Q2 which is, is the balance skewed? In a game w/39 characters are the 1 or 2 at the top significantly stronger than the rest? Are characters 6-25 the meat of where the greatest balance lies?</div><div>3) Once we find where everything is weighted we can then ask where is the fulcrum if you will of where we want to balance everything around? Is there a character or group of characters we want to use as our general starting point? </div><div>4) And lastly, I think one of the most overlooked questions is what level of balance are we willing to accept? In a game of 39 characters are we content with 10 16, 20 of the top being at roughly the same level?</div><div><br></div><div>Basically we have to find our starting point and know where we want to have our end point. </div><div>The tier list is a good starting point and personally I think from about Adon to Sakura is a good endpoint. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Well, I thought that nerf isn’t such a big a deal, and +18 on hit is ridicoulus, but I accept I’m not familiar how the divekick works. I am open to sugestions, if yo uthink is too much, we can reduce it, change, etc. Worth noting I wasn’t in favour of nerfs anyway.<br><br>What you are saying is very interesting, I will think about those questions and try to come up with some answers. I’m also curious about your own ideas. That should make for an interesting discussion. <br><br>Btw, I was rewatching a match from CC, and F Champ and Flash M. were comentating. They both said they would love another balance patch.  <br><br>I also add here the 2nd batch of buffs (character limit don’t allow me to put everything in 1 post): <br><br><u>The Buff List part 2:</u><br><br>[spoiler]<br><!–[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”><b>Dee Jay</b><br>
<br>

  • <u>LK Sobat</u>: - airborne state<br>
  • throw invincible<br>
  • <u>Air Slash</u>: - reduce the start up by 1 frame (11-11-11-12)<br>
  • +1 blockstun/hitstun for regular and ex (+1/+4; +2/+6)<br>
  • <u>cr. HK</u>: - travel more<br>
  • <u>MGU</u>: needs tweaking. It’s common for all the punches to hit except the
    last one.<br>
  • Ex MGU: ex mgu needs less push back on hit because dash U2 (which is already
    difficult to land) sometimes whiff on characters like Adon.<br>
  • Ex MGU: +2 invincibile frames (6)<br>
  • <u>Ultra 2</u>: less recovery on hit.<br>
  • motion changed to back, foward, back, foward<br>
  • <u>far HP</u>: +3 blockstun (-6), always launch on CH.<br>
  • <u>far HK</u>: reduce start up by 3 frames (8)<br>
  • <u>cl HK</u>: +5 hitstun (+5) (Da Knut).<br>
    <br>
    <b>Dhalsim</b><br>
    <br>
  • <u>HP</u>: +10 damage (85)<br>
  • <u>MK</u>: +10 damage (70)<br>
  • <u>Ju. HP</u>: +5 damage (85)<br>
  • <u>b. LK</u>: +10 dmg (40)<br>
  • <u>b. MK</u>: +5 dmg (70)<br>
  • <u>b. HK</u>: +20 (110)<br>
  • <u>cr.b. HP</u>: +15 dmg (100)<br>
  • <u>Ex Yoga Flame</u>: +10 dmg (130)<br>
  • <u>b. MK</u>: gets a 2 hit property. Only first hit is able to be cancelled.<br>
  • <u>Yoga Spear</u>: reduce the start up by 1 frame (11)<br>
  • faster speed<br>
  • more hitstun<br>
  • <u>Yoga Blast</u>: reduce the start up by 1 frame for L, 2 for M and 6 for H
    (10-13-24)<br>
  • <u>Yoga Fire</u>: reduce the start up by 1 frame (13)</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- <u>cr. MK</u>: +10 dmg (70)</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- <u>b. HP</u>: +10 dmg (120) </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”> </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Explanations:</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>[spoiler] Restore Sim’s dmg from Super: he
wasn’t broken then, all these were uncalled nerfs, and right now he simply does
too little dmg, so his opponents don’t have a reason to respect his zoning. </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Yoga Spear: make it a little more
usefull, like in ST, right now it’s pretty much useless.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Yoga Blast: same, especially H
version is useless right now (the buff it received in v.2012 was a bad joke) </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Yoga Fire: strengthening zoning
game overall. (LukyD) [/spoiler]<br>
<br>
<b>Dudley</b><br>
<br>

  • <u>F+ MK</u>: buff the hitbox<br>
  • <u>HK</u>: buff the hitbox<br>
  • <u>cr. LP</u>: buff the hitbox<br>
  • <u>F+ HK</u>: - fix the reel back bug<br>
  • reduce the hurtbox<br>
  • <u>HP</u>: buff the hitbox<br>
  • <u>cr. HK</u>: - reduce the start up by 1 frame (13)<br>
  • reduce the recovery by 1 frame (21)<br>
  • <u>MGB</u>: + 1 hitstun for M, H (+2/+1)<br>
  • 1 blockstun for all versions (-1/-3/-4/-7)<br>
  • <u>SSB</u>: - buff the hitbox for the normal versions.<br>
  • reduce recovery with 1 frame for normal versions (19-21-21)<br>
  • L,M: +1 blockstun (-1/-3)</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”> </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Explanations:</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>[spoiler] Simply make the moves hit where
they should. What the hell is this c.LP should be called c.LWrist</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>F Mk: for better pressure and
target combo purposes.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Hp: essentially, completely
whiffing vs a crouching cammy or having adon/juri dash forward under it is
bullshit</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Mgb: The moves are unsafe as is,
there’s no reason Dudley should be at such a
high risk off using these non cancelable moves. At least make him +2 on hit so
he can continue to pressure vs characters with hitbox altering moves like Ryu’s
c.MK which, at the moment, will push Dudley
out on these moves.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>here’s why dudley
loses to grapplers. get rid of being punished for literally EVERYTHING, and
this match up instantly becomes a lot more even.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>F Hk: Fix his f.HK not allowing him
to connect ANYTHING when he counter hits, or uses f.HK meaty vs characters,
Balrog, Chun-li, Rose, Gen, and El Fuerte. If it’s not Dudley’s
fault, make f.HK move forward more during recovery frames so he can at least
Kara HP Jet Upper.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Ssb: again, just anti grappler
measures. (34, Cliffeside) [/spoiler]<br>
<br>
<b>E. Honda</b><br>
<br>

  • <u>far HP</u>: +20 dmg (100) from the 4<sup>th</sup> frame<br>
  • <u>Oicho</u>: +10 dmg for L,M,H versions (170-180-190)<br>
  • <u>L Headbutt</u>: +20 dmg (120) first 2 active frames<br>
  • <u>H Hands</u>: +14 dmg (119)<br>
  • <u>Shikofumi</u>: reduce the start up by 7 frames (23)<br>
  • <u>Hands</u>: - M hands/ extended M hands: buff the hitbox for both (expanded
    for better connection)<br>
  • H. Hands: +2 blockstun (+5)<br>
  • Ex Hands: +1 hitstun (5); buff the hitbox (expanded for better connection)<br>
  • <u>Oicho</u>: - for all versions, in the corner, on hit, throw animation
    doesn’t end with Honda having crossed over to the far side<br>
  • Ex Oicho: +5 strike invincibility frames; reduce the range to 1.20 (from
    1.52)</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”> </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Explanations: </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>[spoiler] Honda was never broken in Super, so
the amount of nerfs he got is simply stupid. From Super to AE he lost 205 dmg,
and from AE to v.2012 another 30 dmg = 235 dmg loss, same as Yun from AE to
v.2012 – except Honda wasn’t anywhere close to ae Yun’s level. He also got
other nerfs, Ultra 2 was destroyed, hitbox nerf for ju mp, blockstun reduction
for hands, etc.<span style=“mso-spacerun:yes”>  </span>He also didn’t received
any significant buffs since vanilla. For a character that was never considered
broken and never won a major, all these nerfs are plain stupid. If Capcom don’t
want defensive characters, they can simply erase Honda, Sim and Guile from the
game, there’s no need to make them mediocre. </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>I think it is common sense to
undone part of the nerfs he received:</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- Give back half the dmg for HP:
100 dmg (it was 120 in Super, 140 in vanilla !!). I can understand Capcom not
wanting Honda to have a 120 dmg poke, but making it having less dmg than MP is
stupid, esp. for a poke that has 10 frames start up.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- Give back half the dmg for
Oichos: they are Honda’s main tool for opening people up, and Oicho was
traditionally one of Honda’s feared weapons in ST</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- Give back 1/3 of Hands dmg (it
did 140 dmg in Super): I can understand reducing Honda’s bnb dmg, but not at this
degree (35 dmg reduction ??)<span style=“mso-spacerun:yes”>    </span></p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- L HB: a completelly uncalled nerf
– why would you nerf an antiair tool, especially one that is slow (13 fr start
up), and needs a charge ? Give back the dmg partially (it did 130 in Super) </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Honda is supposed to have big dmg,
that’s his character archetype, it always was. He has no reliable comeback
factor, and a terrible oki game, so landing big dmg is the way he wins. </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- H Hands: give back a part of the
blockstun he had in Super (he had +6). Hands are Honda’s main pressure tool. It
needs to be advantaged enough that holding up, backdashing or mashing a 3-4
frame normal wont defeat the second hhs. Honda has no true strings, no 3 fr
normal, and his cr lk is 5 frames so I dont think this is a lot to ask. </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Some characters like Akuma or Seth
that have many tools at their disposal can afford to have some of them not
being usefull. But Honda doesn’t have many tools, so he can’t afford to have
useless stuff:</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- Shikofumi: Capcom decided to give
him an unique attack, but right now this move is complete garbage – at 30
frames start up, obvious animation and requires Honda to give up charge, is
completelly useless. Considering that Shikofumi is Honda’s only overhead, and
that Honda’s mix up game is far from stellar, I think it would be correct to
make this move more usefull. Even at 23 start, Shikofumi would still be one of
the slowest overheads in the game, but at least it would be an option that
Honda can use it occasionally, spicing up his gameplan and making him more
interesting to play. It’s also a cool move, it’s a waste not to be
usefull.<span style=“mso-spacerun:yes”>      </span></p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- M Hands: right now Honda players
have very few reasons to use this move, since it pushes forward less than
fierce version, so you can easily miss hits and get punnished. One way this move
might become more usefull is if both M and extended M (Renda) hands would
receive a hitbox buff. Honda has some very interesting combos involving M hands
and Renda hands, but unfortunately, those combos works only on 5-6 characters
and are very unreliable, being very space dependent. Honda also has a combo
into ultra with Renda hands, but it works on 4 characters, and only 1 works
both standing and crouching. Considering Honda doesn’t have much diversity in
his combos, this buff would spice up Honda’s game, and make him more
interesting to play. It would also give Honda players a reason to use M Hands.
Also, since Honda has very poor comeback factor, and both his ultras are bad,
giving him more ways to land his ultra should be ok, and Renda hands would have
a reason to be used. The combos would still remain heavily character specific
anyway.<span style=“mso-spacerun:yes”>  </span><span style=“mso-spacerun:yes”>  </span></p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- Ex Hands: right now this move is
almost never used. The only time you see it is when someone mistakes his inputs
and does the moon walk. The whole purpose of Ex hands is to allow for more
advanced combos, to be a bridge in combos. Problem is, right now Ex hands
allows for 1 frame links only. Now, other characters also have 1 frame links,
so that shouldn’t be a problem, but this ex hands 1 frame links are unplinkable
(unless it is used start buton), and the timing is very unnatural, since
there’s a big gap between links. Even more, because ex hands has a lot of
animation, the opponent has plenty of time to mash a reversal/ ultra, so if you
miss the link, Honda player is guaranteed to a eat a fat punish, unlike other 1
framers (Rufus, abel, others) that if missed are mostly safe. Even worse, Honda
waste 1 meter bar, which is huge for Honda. Simply put it, right now the
risk/reward is not worthy, so nobody is using this move in a serious match.
Considering outside ex hands, Honda doesn’t have much damaging combos, and that
ex hands are also very character specific, I think it should be fair to make
them usefull. The hitbox buff would also help so some hits doesn’t whiff on
some characters, and the last hit connect with more characters, allowing these
combos to be a little less space dependent and work on more characters. The
combos would still remain difficult, need ex meter (very valuable for Honda),
and character specific, but this would allow Honda to land more damage in
combos (right now his standard punnish does 265 dmg), have a reason to use
meter in combos, and make him much more interesting and fun to play. </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- Ex Oicho: another useless move. 2
out of 4 ex special moves are useless right now for Honda (ex hands and oicho).
While for every other character that have an ex command grab, this move have
some special abilities that gives a reason to be used, in Honda’s case, ex
Oicho doesn’t have anything – it has 0.02 more range than L Oicho (completely
irrelevant), and 10 more dmg than H Oicho (no Honda will ever waste 1 bar for
this).</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>By giving the invincibility, the
move would have a purpose in Honda’s arsenal. This would help Honda a lot on
wakeup, because right now Honda’s fastest reversal has 8 frames start up, so
Honda can be easily safe jumped by almost everyone. Honda is supposed to be a
defensive wall, a tank, the ultimate defensive character, but unfortunatelly he
can easily be abused on wakeup by vortex characters. This is out of Honda’s
character archetype – I understand that Akuma is supposed to give Honda
problems with his zoning game, that’s Honda’s traditional weakness, but it’s
not understandable why Honda has to deal also with Akuma’s vortex (same case for
Seth match). This buff would help Honda in some of his bad matches, and would
also keep him true to his archetype – this would also be an awesome throwback
to ST Honda, where Oicho was an awesome reversal. Range should be reduced
accordingly, since keeping the current range would be too much (ex Oicho will
have the shortest range). </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- Oicho: In ST, Ochio throw would
swap positions except in a corner. In SF4, Honda is generally at his strongest
when the opponent is cornered and he is crouched just outside. Not only is
Honda at his strongest, but Ochio throw specifically is strongest at this
point. It would be great if Honda <span style=“mso-spacerun:yes”> </span>not
corner himself and (more importantly) give his opponent the entirety of the
playing field to back away and go back to keeping Honda out with
fireballs/whatever. Honda doesn’t have a corner carry move, he is a defensive
character, a charge character, so it’s not like he can easily put his opponent
in the corner. But if he does this, he should be rewarded more. This buff would
most likely affect mostly Honda’s bad match ups – the matches where he needs to
go on offensive, and less his good ones, where he usually just turtles. It
would be a big help in matches like Ryu/Sagat/Guile, when Honda finally corner
them to be able to put more pressure on them. It would also be another nice
throwback to ST days. </p>

<span style=“font-size:12.0pt;font-family:“Times New Roman”;mso-fareast-font-family:
“MS Mincho”;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:JA;mso-bidi-language:
AR-SA”>These are all simple buffs, with unlikely side effects, that would make
Honda stronger and more interesting to play, while keeping him true to his
archetype, keeping his traditional weakness and traditional bad matches, and
not make him broken. (Emanuelb, TWG Arthur, Stevo).<span style=“mso-spacerun:yes”> [/spoiler]</span><br>
<br>
<b>El Fuerte</b><br>
<br>

  • <u>Guacamole Leg Throw</u>: Fix the trade (example: Ryu jHK’s El Fuerte
    Guacs. they both hit each other, Fuerte takes full damage from jHK and flies
    back like he should from getting hit in air. Ryu teleports to the ground hard
    knockdown, no damage.)<br>
  • <u>Habanero Back Dash</u>: Fix the deadzone (there are times when you run
    back you can mash jab (sudden stop) and El Fuerte will not stop, instead
    hitting the wall and running forward, still not stopping.<br>
  • <u>Tostada Press</u>: Fix the splash hit box, I can’t tell you how many times
    I splash, I see Fuerte touch them, nothing happens, then my ass is grizazz<br>
  • <u>cl HP</u>: +50 stun (200). Run Stop Fierce is a rare occurrence in high level
    play. If you eat it and you play a low stun character like Viper, you deserve
    to get stunned. This is really Fuerte’s only damage. Any Fuerte that relies
    solely on his mixup is almost guaranteed to lose.<br>
  • <u>Propeller Tortilla</u>: +18 dmg (150). The best thing this move had going
    for it was beating Ryu/Akuma DP free in Vanilla, changing their properties
    indirectly nerfed Fuerte. The damage nerf is unnecessary<br>
  • <u>Quesadilla Bomb</u>: reduce the start up by 1 frame (16). (Densuo).<br><br></span><br style=“mso-special-character:line-break”><span style=“font-size:12.0pt;font-family:“Times New Roman”;mso-fareast-font-family:
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</span><p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”><b>Evil Ryu</b><br>
<br>

  • <u>Teleport</u>: needs some improvement. Either extend the invincibility a
    few more frames, shorten the recovery, or increase the distance traveled. As it
    is, it’s not much of an escape tool, which is to say that it’s not much of
    anything. It doesn’t need to be as good as Akuma’s, but using E.Ryu’s teleport
    successfully should not only happen because it’s so terrible that the opponent
    never expects E.Ryu to use it, so he can actually, very rarely, get away with
    it.<br>
  • <u>Red Fireball</u>: reduce the recovery for L by 2 frames, for M by 3
    frames, for H by 5, and for Ex by 2 (51-58-64-51)<br>
  • <u>Axe Kick</u>: - H Axe Kick: <span style=“mso-bidi-font-style:italic”>hits
    overhead</span><br>
  • L Axe Kick: <i>+ </i><span style=“mso-bidi-font-style:italic”>2 block stun</span>
    (-5)<br>
  • Ex Axe Kick: gets some strike invincibility frames<br>
  • +10 dmg for each version of Axe kick: 110-90-140-170.<br>
  • H axe kick: +50 stun (200)<br>
  • <u>EX. Shoryuken</u>: +1 invincibility frame (9)</p><p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”><br></p><p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Explanations: <br></p><p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”><!–[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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</p><p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>[spoiler]- Red fireball: Just tweak his red
fireball’s recovery to 1f or 2f slower than Akuma’s for all versions. That’d be
enough to improve their usefulness from “marginal” to
"situational," which is all his red fireball really needs to be.
Currently, E.Ryu’s red fireball is mostly relegated to tacking on a bit of
extra chip after an Ultra or throwing the LP version as a gimmicky bait if the
opponent jumps in thinking it was the slower HP version. In fireball wars, a
well-timed red fireball by E.Ryu at the right spacing can, admittedly, turn the
tide in his favor or even blow the opponent up completely. Still, there is very
little justification for the move being so slow to recover.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>- Axe kick: L: Right now I don’t
know what Capcom wants us to do with this move. It’s unsafe on block, isn’t a
true block string when used with low forward, and it does shit damage with no
follow up or mix up opportunities. Pretty much all it’s good for is FADC
combos. But that cost meter. This change will at least make it a pressure tool,
but it’s still unsafe as it’s not a true block string and when spaced poorly,
it can still be punished by fast normals or specials.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>H: It’s extremely slow and no Evil
Ryu player uses it. It’s very easy to stuff it or jump out of it even when
canceled from a normal with a lot of hit stun like st. HP or st. MP. If it’s an
overhead, at least there will be some incentive in going for it and hoping to
catch your opponent off guard.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Ex: It shares a similar problem
with the HK axe kick, it’s slow and gets stuffed or jumped out of so easily
unless canceled from a high hit stun normal. This will at least make people be
forced to block it similarly to Makoto’s EX chop. But it remains -4 on block
and with very little push back, it’s definitely punishable on block. So it’s
not something that can be thrown out without fear.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>The axe kicks is Evil Ryu’s unique
special move, but Capcom has made almost every version of it crap. The only
semi decent one is the MK version. These changes makes that move much more
relevant, but not too strong. I changed very little else where so he’s not that
different from before, except that you may actually use the axe kicks more this
time around for pressure and as overheads. (Time Pants, Rice Eater, Otori). [/spoiler]</p><p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”><br></p><p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”><!–[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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</p><p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”><b>Fei Long</b><br>
<br>

  • <u>M Flame Kick</u>: +10 dmg (130)<br>
  • <u>cr. MP</u>: +10 dmg (65)<br>
  • <u>H Chicken Wing</u>: +20 dmg (120)<br>
  • <u>Chicken Wing</u>: hit connect after a crossup<br>
  • <u>cl MP</u>: C.W. canceled from MP connects with the opponent</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”> </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Explanations: </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>[spoiler] Capcom balanced him pretty well
from AE. Only needs some small tweaks that didn’t make sense.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Flame Kick: nerfing antiairs
doesn’t make much sense in this game. All flame kicks were nerfed with 10 dmg,
but M with 20 – so at least equalize the nerfs (-10 dmg for all). The fadc
combo is barely worthy right now anyway.</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>Cr mp: Fei Long doesn’t have big
dmg output, so there’s no need to nerf the dmg of his pokes</p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>H CW: nerfing the dmg was
understandable, but 40 dmg reduction is way overboard. Right now H CW has less
dmg than M version, and coupled with the loss of invincibility from Super is
just too much. I say settle for the middle 120 dmg (so L-100, M-110, H-120). </p>

<p class=“MsoNormal” style=“line-height:150%”>CW: chicken wing connecting on a
cross up is something very rare and very difficult to time. There’s no need to
remove it, it’s mostly for fun, to spice up Fei’s game.</p>

<span style=“font-size:12.0pt;font-family:“Times New Roman”;mso-fareast-font-family:
“MS Mincho”;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:JA;mso-bidi-language:
AR-SA”>Cl MP: an uneeded nerf. Fei Long doesn’t really have character specific
combos, so removing one of his few doesn’t make much sense. The combo works on
8 characters, and the dmg was already nerfed. Plus, is one thing that could
make Fei more interesting to play. (Emanuelb) [/spoiler]</span><span style=“font-size:12.0pt;font-family:“Times New Roman”;mso-fareast-font-family:
“MS Mincho”;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:JA;mso-bidi-language:
AR-SA”><br style=“mso-special-character:line-break”>
</span>[/spoiler]<br><p></p>

<p></p>

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Emanuel would you like some help getting the explanations to make this process move a bit faster?<div><br></div><div>Just saying to earlier comments about making everyone balance and making it seem like everyone is 5-5. Thats not the point of what is happening. Our job is to help the lower tier characters out in their game without making match ups lop sided. Anyway we balance it someone will be top but in this way the lower tier characters should be able to stick it out more.</div>

Sure, if you can write something up/ get some write up it would be great. I think for Rose you and Cerberus could make the explanation - the idea is to explain why these buffs are needed/wanted and what are they suppose to do (if it’s not obvious). <br>

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/21184/Genistar">Genistar</a> said:</div><div class=“QuoteText”><div>Our job is to help the lower tier characters out in their game without making match ups lop sided. Anyway we balance it someone will be top but in this way the lower tier characters should be able to stick it out more.</div></div>
</blockquote>

Theoretically a nice attempt, but when i see those buffs, i get the feeling that those lopsided match ups will stay here. If i see the tier list of this from this forum, then i will see that T.Hawk has a lot of bad match ups, but the funny fact is , his worst match ups aren´t even really the top 5 characters, those are more the mid tier characters.<br>T.Hawk will get those buffs, according to a buff list a few pages earlier:<br>

  • <u>Condor Spire</u>: - reduce the start up with 2 frames for regular (18) and 1 for Ex (14)<br>
  • +1 hitstun (-4/-5/-7)<br>
  • <u>Tomahawk B.</u>: reduce the start up with 1 frame (4-5-7-4)<br>
  • +10 dmg for each version (140-160-170-140)<br>
  • <u>Condor Dive</u>: on kd lands closer to the opponent<br>
  • Ex Dive: lower height restriction to allow for easier followups<br>
  • <u>Mexican T</u>.: +10 dmg for L (160) and H (240) versions<br>
  • <u>cr. MK</u>: +10 dmg (80)<br>
  • <u>Ultra 2</u>: +20 dmg (470)<br>
  • more horizontal range<br>
  • <u>Health</u>: +50 (1150) (What?)<br><br>Some are really interesting i must say, they could help him really out, but considering the fact that the characters, who are his worst match ups will also get buffed, his bad match ups can even get more worse. T.Hawks good match ups can theoretically also get better(Yun for example), then we will have the same problem with very lopsided match ups.<br>The character design of certain characters allows such bad match ups, i mean Hawk´s tools alone aren´t making him low tier, it his also his character design that will also create those extreme match up numbers.<br><br>Same with Dhalsim, the buffs he would get, will make it harder for certain characters to fight against him, but he will still get destroyed by Abels or Makotos, because they would also receive buffs and Dhalsim´s character design shouldn´t be forgotten.<br><br>Edit: A lot of these buffs are looking very exaggerated.<br><br>

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><br></div></blockquote><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/84629/Oilforthewin">Oilforthewin</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/21184/Genistar">Genistar</a> said:</div><div class=“QuoteText”><div>Our job is to help the lower tier characters out in their game without making match ups lop sided. Anyway we balance it someone will be top but in this way the lower tier characters should be able to stick it out more.</div></div>
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Theoretically a nice attempt, but when i see those buffs, i get the feeling that those lopsided match ups will stay here. If i see the tier list of this from this forum, then i will see that T.Hawk has a lot of bad match ups, but the funny fact is , his worst match ups aren´t even really the top 5 characters, those are more the mid tier characters.<br>T.Hawk will get those buffs, according to a buff list a few pages earlier:<br>

  • <u>Condor Spire</u>: - reduce the start up with 2 frames for regular (18) and 1 for Ex (14)<br>
  • +1 hitstun (-4/-5/-7)<br>
  • <u>Tomahawk B.</u>: reduce the start up with 1 frame (4-5-7-4)<br>
  • +10 dmg for each version (140-160-170-140)<br>
  • <u>Condor Dive</u>: on kd lands closer to the opponent<br>
  • Ex Dive: lower height restriction to allow for easier followups<br>
  • <u>Mexican T</u>.: +10 dmg for L (160) and H (240) versions<br>
  • <u>cr. MK</u>: +10 dmg (80)<br>
  • <u>Ultra 2</u>: +20 dmg (470)<br>
  • more horizontal range<br>
  • <u>Health</u>: +50 (1150) (What?)<br><br>Some are really interesting i must say, they could help him really out, but considering the fact that the characters, who are his worst match ups will also get buffed, his bad match ups can even get more worse. T.Hawks good match ups can theoretically also get better(Yun for example), then we will have the same problem with very lopsided match ups.<br>The character design of certain characters allows such bad match ups, i mean Hawk´s tools alone aren´t making him low tier, it his also his character design that will also create those extreme match up numbers.<br><br>Same with Dhalsim, the buffs he would get, will make it harder for certain characters to fight against him, but he will still get destroyed by Abels or Makotos, because they would also receive buffs and Dhalsim´s character design shouldn´t be forgotten.<br><br>Edit: A lot of these buffs are looking very exaggerated.<br><br></div>
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Tbh  i dont think t.hawk was made for this engine.  It would be nice if T.hawk could loop his throw again but that would be too powerful.

  1. Thought the general consensus was not to nerf the top at all…no exceptions.  Akuma and Seth have a bunch of BS, but they aren’t getting any nerfs…neither should Cammy.  Just leave her as is.  <div><br></div><div>2. As far as balance in general, I figured the goal would be for the 39 characters to be as equal in strength as possible.  </div><div><br></div><div>3. I think Elf needs quite a bit more than the buffs listed to be competitive.  </div>

The general consensus is usually uninformed. Giving characters straight buffs is not a good idea most of the time anyway, even when everyone has relatively mediocre options (like they do here.) Nerf is a pretty ugly word in here because it ignores context. Some buffs require that other areas of a character be nerfed to varying degrees.<br><br>The goal of balance is not to make everyone equal in strength when it comes to fighting games. This is close to impossible when you have a cast bigger than 10 characters with any diversity. There are various ways to go about balancing, but the end goal is usually to make everyone tournament viable.<br><br>I don’t want to comment on the Elf part.<br><br>

Elf needs the delete button.<br>