Old School vs. New School


#1

So I have recently learned that I may tick throw too much. I won’t name names, as I do not take insult.

They explained that Old School was avoiding throws if you could, and not ticking into throws at all. They play like this due to habit it appears. In fact what I have noticed fighting them, is that they have an emphasis on pokes and solid spacing and zoning.

New School is the tick throw, win win win, grab grab grab. Maybe not that much, but for the most part there are quite a few people that perscribe to strategies like this.

My question to the community is should we respect the old ways, or conform to the new ways. Perhaps a middle ground?

I’ve figured out that people really don’t like getting throw looped, which I know didn’t even exist before ST(could honda, sim, and boxer do it though? Unexplored?) just as throw reducing didn’t either. However, you have to admit it is a very solid, reliable tool. Just as tick throwing can be a very solid, reliable tool.

I’m hoping to get some SOUND OPINIONS, not “lulz they can just counter” or “fuck tick throwers they cheat”. I want to hear details about how you feel about tick throwing, being tick thrown, and whether you perscribe to it or not. As well as WHY you feel/believe that way.


#2

At low to mid-level play, tick throwing over and over again is a solid strategy. And also a hated strategy, because it works so well. At top level play, tick throws are just another tool. I’m certainly not the best player in the world, but I’m savvy to tick-throws. If I suspect you’re going to throw me there is a really good chance that I will throw you instead or hit you with a reversal attack.

So, at high-level play it’s simply a gamble. A mix-up. It’s something to use when you’re opponent doesn’t expect it. Another good tactic is to fake a tick throw. You go for the tick, then block. This will bait your opponents reversal move, which you can then counter.

There is no cheap, there is only win or lose.


#3

Does not matter who they are.
They are wrong regardless.

Use what is available to win, intentionally handicapping yourself is an asinine notion.
What other game or sport involves players intentionally handicapping themselves as to be nicer to their opponent ?

Does a Starcraft player intentionally not do an early rush if your opponent does 12 CC ?

Does a Chess player intentionally not go for Smothered Mate ?

Does a Magic player not play Ravager Affinity, Manaless Ichorid ?

They will simply be run over by players that do utilize everything they can simply because they are not prepared for it.
What they do not use means they limit the strategy and depth meaning they cannot be prepared when faced with someone that will use anything and everything.

etc.


#4

So far so good. Posts like Johnny’s and Shari’s are what I’m looking for.

Now if someone from the opposite side would like to take a swing.


#5

I am a shitty player, and I lose when you tic throw me.

Tic throwing sucks.


#6

I agree with shari and johnny, but I can see why tick throwing can be frustrating in a laggy game cos your reversal wont worked as planned.


#7

Firstly I’m probably the most reliant on tick throws out of the posters here.

I agree with Johnny in that against most players I can just tick-throw my way to victory without even having to think. It gets a lot more interesting when they begin to reverse and I start having to bait.

The reason I think tick-throwing damages the game is that many mediocre players rely on them too much and get so used to winning with them that other aspects of their game are weak.

As for tick-throwing others, I always try to win but I may switch characters or try new tricks from time to time to keep things interesting.

The win no matter rule, I disagree with. There are plenty of reasons and examples where people don’t do everything they can do within the rules to win, out of sportsmanship usually.


#8

reversing can be a double edged sword though, if you are good at reversals than your opponant can do the tick throw motions, but not actually perform the throw, you do the reversal move and thus are left wide open. (This is what hitwari has called ‘baiting above’) So it becomes a guessing game


#9

This is not Old School. In fact, this isn’t a school at all - it’s purely nonsense.


#10

For one thing, there are a decent amount of people who think they are “old school” because they used to play WW on their SNES with their brother “back in the day” when they came up with these silly rules about no throwing and sometimes even giving your opponent a free combo if you did land a throw. That and there are similar people in this vain, and though they do not call themselves old school, they consider tick throw and chip damage cheap. Those are the worst because the live in their own little world completely separated from the main stream competition. Worse yet, they try to force their beliefs on you immediately labelling you as cheap. I’ve only had maybe two people ask me politely to stop doing stuff like using super. Taking super away from Boxer takes a lot away from his game, but at least the guy asked nicely.

An alternative theory that my friend came up with is that the “no throwing” or “no tick throwing” rule might have just been a habit from WW. Considering how much damage throws did in that game, it is possible that small group of local competition had banned throws, much like how some places banned spamming assists in MVC2 when it first came out (or so I read on wikipedia or something).

Either way, tick throws are perfectly legitimate. They have nothing to do with old or new school. Though it’s easy to get frustrated when you get caught in a tick throw loop. Heck, I got frustrated last night when Honda perfected me with just bearhugs and kneebashes. (The guy didn’t even use ochio!) I’m pretty sure I’ve seen you say that you main Ken who has a ridiculously good tick throw loop game, so it’s not small wonder.


#11

The dominance of tick throwing is simply a phase that players will go through as their skill levels increase.

Two players who start off playing the game around the same time might have about the same level of skill. As those players have started to master each of their characters special moves and learned the basics of the game inevitably one of them will learn how to tick throw. At this point in the game neither player knows enough about the game, nor are they smart enough or fast enough to see how this is not an unbeatable strategy. At this point they are at a cross-roads. They will decide that they are already proficient enough at the game to decide what is unbeatable and what is not (and they would be wrong), or they will continue to improve their skills until tick throwing fades into the background with a dozen other powerful strategies in this game.

I mean, the evidence is pretty clear. Look at any high level match vids. See any tick throwing? Maybe one in a whole match.


#12

I would like it if you guys were a little less offensive to their opinion. Especially since the guys I play with have no trouble winning without throws at all.

My question arises, because they are at a level far above mine at this point. The type of level where even if I throw loop them, they can and do reverse me. That’s assuming they even drop their guard for me to get that close.

They don’t like tick throwing, but they told me they don’t really respect that and they also said they don’t want me to change the way I fight because of what they said. I still want to play with them, I just want to be a little less annoying.

If they can destroy me without ever needing a single throw, then there are obviously much better strategies to employ than a tick throw heavy game.

I am fine with tick throwing, but after playing with them, I feel that its actually holding me back.


#13

As soon as the people around where I lived learned about tick throwing (I think I learned it around the time Champion Edition came out) they did it ALL THE TIME. It was pretty much zoning and ticking all day. I’ve had a few friends say it got so bad that throwing got defacto “banned” from certain arcades.

I disagree. I see it all the time in EVO vids. They are usually smarter about it though and mix things up so they can guise their tick attempts better.


#14

I’m not a fan of tick throws and loops but I can understand the significance. I can also understand if people use these strats against me, but I won’t lie and say it doesn’t annoy me. I may hate it as a tool, yes, but I won’t belittle a player for using it. If anything, I’m trying to learn Cammy’s ticks so that I can harass players the way they harass me!


#15

To be fair, a lot of people whine about tick throws so it’s easy to call them scrubs w/e.

They can defend reliably. I wish I could do that. Ha ha.

Seems like you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. Obviously you all respect each other, but there are some “creative differences.” Saying they don’t respect tick throws is similar to saying they don’t respect chip damage (to me anyway). I don’t know this person, so I can’t say for sure, but honestly it’s a little insulting that he would tell you that he doesn’t respect tick throws. Again, I can’t be sure this is true, but basically he’s developed a play style (one that doesn’t involve tick throws) and wants you to play by his artificial rules. The fact that he can reversal consistently means he’s not a scrub, he just doesn’t like dealing with tick throws. So he’s imposing his preference of play style on you. To make an extreme analogy, would you make a cross handed player play uncross handed? This is especially problematic for Ken since kneebash loops are a siginificant portion of Ken’s tactics. Also, I personally find kneebash loops fun since you have so many mix ups. I also understand how you would like to be less annoying. If you’re all having fun, why spoil it?. Just try experimenting with Ken’s other abilities, like fireball and srk zoning. Eh, you probably know what to do better than I do.

Edit: I want to change my analogy. The one above is too extreme. I think it’s more like not respecting a player because he plays cross handed.

Sounds like you have a great group of people who will help you develop other areas of your game play. Just keep playing with them. Differences aside, it seems like you guys have a lot of fun together, so why not?

Watch Gief! Ha ha. I kid I kid.


#16

I definitely respect that they say they don’t want you to change your game for the sake of their values. If not for that, I’d advise finding someone else to play with, but it sounds like they do recognize what their informal ban is…at least on some level.

Within a small group of friends, that sort of ban can work. I wouldn’t say it’s a good idea, but if everyone can agree they would enjoy the game more without X or Y, then yeah, maybe playing without it is the way to go. It’s like playing a modded version of a game.

The issue arises if you ever try to play outside that group. Other people aren’t going to respect the rules that your group came up with–aren’t playing with the same mod. There’s no reason they should, and suggesting it would probably just get you a bunch of hostile responses. So if you try to take the experience of playing a game without throws anywhere else, you’re going to find that your experience left out a whole layer of the game. If you try to take that into a competitive situation, and your opponent notices that you don’t seem to defend well against tick throws, expect to be tick thrown to death.

So I guess what I’m saying is that if you just want to play with them, do whatever. If you ever want to play competitively, learn what you can from them, and then go find someone you can play the whole game with.


#17

I understand, but a lot you act as if someone is not entitled to an opinion.

I also feel this way, when my opponent has 0 throw defense. These guys are awesome so I have to respect that they can obviously play the game better than me.

I’ll let everyone know what happens when I try less tick throwing. I will still do it, just less.

For the record, I don’t tick throw like Botshanic on PSN. Chunli tick throws to the max with a dialup connection lol.


#18

If you haven’t read them already, you might want to check out S-Kill’s articles over in the Domination 101 section. Pretty good reads and he brings up some points that I think are relevant to what you guys are talking about.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34747

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34750


#19

This is pretty much correct, but it really isn’t just like that. In the old days, you could get an advantage and freeze the character, preventing the enemy from damaging you ever again that round. That was also frowned upon, but for a good reason, and no competitive scene would accept it. Fortunately, CE arrived and solved it.

I believe the issue is not about being old school, but having contact with competitive SF2 back then. I did not have, many here did not, and names like Osaki or Ohira would mean nothing all around the world. People would know a trick or two and be able to defeat everyone in a small town or region, not aware that someone a mile away could beat them 100 times in a row with no sweat, and such a person would also get destroyed by another guy not so far away from him, and so on and on and on. Later on in this post I will provide a link to videos with old tricks that I either had no idea of, or would not understand the intricates that they have, such as safe jumps and reversals. Being old school does not mean much. Having access to a competitive scene does. That is why I still suck, no matter how much I learn from this forum.

You are actually not correct. Check 1:46 at the [media=youtube]s4ABbhQIQHo&feature=PlayList&p=BD62935E24E9794B&index=0"]first video of this playlist for Dhalsim’s throw loop used against Guile. Later on there are loops for Honda, Gief, Blanka and others, and lots and lots of mixups that would punish counters to them, such as just defending, standing up to reversal throw or using an invincible attack. Some explanations are available in [URL=“http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2007/08/classic-sf2-video-nagoyan.html”[/media]. And to think I really thought I did not suck at that game. I suppose most here (virtually everyone) would get absolutely destroyed by the ones who mastered those things that early, and would believe it was absolutely unfair. Not to say WW was already balanced, it was not, but the truth is that the vast majority of people really had no idea how it would be when played by experts, and would jump to conclusions.


#20

Edit: Just forget everything I’ve said. I can’t seem to communicate my thoughts today.