On Cheapness


#41

I believe there is a phrase that goes “All’s fair in love and war”. The thing about this is that fights that involve “cheap” tactics are usually pretty boring to watch. I would not like to watch a high level match won through projectile spamming, its pretty dull.

However, the fighting games of today are more balanced than they were before. MvC3 may have tiers, but each character has the ability (given the right team) to win. This is unlike MvC2 which did not really favor diversity very much. Hell, the best example I could give would be BlazBlue. Every character in the game has the potential to win, given time and practice. Some noobs might delcare some things “cheap” like Tager’s grab, Jin’s “Ice Car”, and Lambda’s swords to name a few. The thing is though none of these are cheap in any way. Tager’s grabs do high damage because he was literally ZERO mobility, Jin’s ice cars can easily be punished on block, and Lambda’s main zoning tool are her swords because rush downs can tear her up if they get in. In this case its a matter of being unable to adapt to the situation. The thought that got me through this was that “its not cheap, I just have not found a way to beat it yet.”

In the end I believe most scrubs are the ones who don’t adapt to the fight. They will continue to try the same tactic (like jumping in SFIV) even though they get punished for it by anti airs. A tactic is only cheap if there is literally no way around it, not because you can’t get around it.


#42

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter if you didn’t win.

I play characters I like. Tiers be damned.

But you can’t expect or demand respect (barring common courtesies of course) because you use a low tier guy.


#43

Horrible example, since MvC2 had very good team/playstyle diversity at the top. You may have seen similar characters, but each team player differently even if they shared some characters (Santhrax plays differently from Matrix, even if the difference is only one character).

A better example would be MvC1 since the metagame revolved mostly around Duo Team abuse meaning the game was dominated by Strider/War Machine or Duo War Machine.


#44

This. One thousand times this.
It’s tough enjoying and playing low tier characters. Joe and Morrigan are some of my favorites and I don’t want to drop them at all. I keep getting the “Try using Sentinel.” “Try using Akuma and Wolverine and Phoenix.” I don’t like any of those characters at all. Not to mention I’m a pretty low level player, so I don’t yet expect to get very far with those characters, but I feel that if enough work, research, and careful planning goes in to playing them, it’s an incredibly rewarding experience.

If nothing else it’s fun getting a victory with characters like that. I got my ass beaten by Ranadiel a few days ago. He was running Hsien-Ko/Felicia/Morrigan, and I got destroyed. Pretty much solely by his Hsien-Ko. Now, while I think that’d be tough to OCV someone like that in a higher level play, it’s really sweet to see someone with some really high level skills with such a low class character.

Low tier for the win. =D


#45

it’s a double edged sword. Really.

Win with a low tier. You’re a hero.
Lose with a low tier. You’re an idiot for not going high tier.


#46

A really unfortunate situation. When it gets down to things though, I would much rather have a fun match and lose than a horribly bland one sided match. Not that it’s isn’t impressive when people pull things off with high tier characters. Hell, I doubt I could do too much damage with Wesker, Dante, or…well maybe Sentinel and Wolverine.

I most likely have this attitude because I’m a fairly low level player, haven’t gone to any kind of competition, and as I said, really play more for fun, though I am trying to improve. As far as I’m concerned though, if I’m not in a tournament where I’m hoping to get some sort of recognition or win a prize or something, I’m playing a game. At their core they are video games, and they’re meant to be fun; competitive in some circles yes, but even casual matches between higher leveled people I would assume are “just for fun.”

And I like, lost the rest of my thought. I had a whole lot more to say, but it kinda…fell off. >_>

Also I like your team.


#47

Ha ha. Thanks. Go to a tourney and engage in casuals. Getting advice there means a lot.

I want to use an example fellas.

Yesterday there was boxing. Floyd Mayweather vs Victor Ortiz.

The Facebook scrubs are in an uproar over how Floyd took a cheap shot at Ortiz to win.

My point?

Do not mistake “Dishonorable” and “cheap” with “illegal”


#48

I haaaaaaaaaate it when people try to bring honor into video games. Maybe it’s just me but when I think honor I think of real life situations like helping someone in need. Anyway getting back on topic…

I always compare “cheapness” in video games to two guys getting into a fist fight. Both men have the ability to punch one another in the balls. Both men know that they have the potential to be punched in the balls. So when Man A hits Man B in the balls resulting in a fallen adversary is he cheap? When you think about it all it was was an easily employable and effective strategy to take your opponent down. So if I know that a particular game-play element exists and I take advantage of it am I cheap just because the other guy thinks he’s above it? Much as I despise Cable in Marvel 2 he is a very easy to pick up character (though seeing a newer Cable player and a seasoned pro Cable player has noticeable differences). So is he cheap or is he just effective? Same with Sentinel in Marvel 3. He does big damage, has easy beginner combos, and has enough stamina that you can come back from a mistake you may have made. He’s a very good character but does his less work/more damage (not trying to insult super awesome Sent players, just speaking from a general standpoint) make him cheap or just a great character choice for those picking up the game for the first time? I play keep away in most fighting games because I find it a very powerful strategy but lo and behold I’m always called out for cheapness because I’m not mindlessly rushing in and trying to play the way THEY want the game to be played.

And I’ll admit I used to have that “cheap BS” mentality. When I was in high school playing Marvel 2 at the local arcade there was a guy who’d come in and always kick me off the machine by running Strider/Doom lock-down. I always got pissed off, made myself look like a jack-ass, and storm off because I thought this “cheap tactic” was bullshit and I refused to get around it. One of the greatest things I ever did for my gaming was throw the notion of “cheapness” out the window. After I got over that and started to break down strategies and learn to get around things I went from that punk you’d beat in 10 seconds flat to that guy who makes you work hard for your victory (except SF3…can’t do that game for the life of me, doesn’t stop me from trying though).


#49

I’m not gonna jump on the debate, too much to read already. At first, reading the first paragraph, I was wondering: ‘Hey, is that really Seth?’ But then I saw how well-thought this was.

I personally agree with your statement, except that your boundaries of what’s a scrub are a little wide at times. Then again, I believe that anything that has a counter should not be called cheap.

(Argument on a real fight)
Well, the balls things isn’t cheap (with some adrenaline pumped, you’d have to be weak to fall down after a punch in the balls anyway…) But there are clearly some things that are cheap. Like running behind a guy and giving him a sucker punch, is that not a cheap move to you? Hitting a guy in the balls is like doing a 100% stun combo with Makoto on Akuma in 3rd Strike. It’s not cheap, just a good tool to get rid of your opponent. Something cheap would be Nu-13 from BB, she controls the whole stage with her swords that have mad fast recovery, can basically get free high damaging combos off of ANYTHING and gets out of pressure for free.


#50

So I used a poor example, I think people get what I was trying to say though.


#51

How I wish Seth would post 2 versions of his articles. 1 version that is complete with all his comments/sidetracking. A second one that is more summarized and concise. LOL


#52

I actually worked with children with disabilities ages 12-60 wether a scrub or not I would prefer your professional self not to use the term “Retarded” since I can’t use the F-Bomb. Thanks S - kill


#53

Like I always say:


#54

He wrote this before he was with capcom. Learn your shit


#55

personally, i think it’s more discriminatory that you would refer to a disabled 60-year-old as a “child”


#56

Personally I think you are really fucking cheap.

So cheap you haven’t been on PSN for over 3 months.

I bet you throw too. :coffee:


#57

Look, man, I’m not cheap. I’m just currently experiencing some financial difficulties. That’s all.

I owe money to some bad people right now so I can’t afford to renew my PSN subscription until I pay off my debt to them. They said that if they see me online before then, I’m going to lose all of my gaming fingers.


#58

He’s so cheap, shizz is already free and he still don’t wanna buy it.


#59

You want cheap!.. Play Mugen!


#60

I once played someone in ssf4. I beat him with a few block strings leading to throws. He said “wow throws”. Then I picked viper and did a few burning kicks. Then stopped to respond to a message mid fight. (someone else from a previous fight was callin me cheap, I couldn’t help it). Usually not only did he beat the hell out of me when I obviously wasn’t pressing buttons. (I usually stop when someone stops pushing buttons as I imagine some batteries have dies or something random). After the fight he complained about all the burning kicks I did. (for the couple of seconds I was playing before I stopped pushing buttons.). Then I asked him if he plays to win in some way or another. He said he plays to have fun and do combos and stuff. I think he fits the description of a scrub perfectly.
Also, one. Ore thing, and I’m a bit confused about this one. But I beat a dude up very badly. And it wasn’t even in some “cheap way”. You know, few grabs and. I repeat moves. Then he kicks me out. I ask why and he says something like, " I kick trash who mashes and doesn’t know any footsies". I didn’t even know how to respond to this one…