So then please give me an example of something that is an absolute 1 frame link or a two framer just as well. Working the actual frame math out well help me understand the concept much better.
As far as an example of 1 frame link goes, here’s a simple one - Ryu’s close standing LP to crouching HK. On hit, Ryu’s close standing LP is +5, which means it has a five frame “advantage” over the opponent. His sweep has a 5 frame startup, which means that it takes 5 frames for the move to enter it’s “active” stage - the part of it that actualy hits.
Cloes standing LP’s on-hit advantage and crouching HK startup is equal, which means that if you manage to input the command for the sweep at one exact frame, the only one between the punch and the kick where the enemy is still in hitstun, you’ll get a two hit combo using a one frame link. The more frames of difference between one move’s advantage and other’s startup, the more frames you have to link.
So obviously, if a move has more startup than the previous one had advantage, you can’t link them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the numbers that are important are the advantage on hit and start up. If a move is +6 frames on hit, and the next move you want to do has 5 frames of start up then that link will be one frame link
As far as I know a one frame link happens when hit advantage and startup are equal, but I might be wrong.
Althrough if I were wrong, the example I gave above wouldn’t work, and it obviously does.
EDIT: I missused the term “hitstun”, the relevant thing is in fact advantage on hit.
Isn’t sf4 the only game that counts frames this way? I think that’s worth mentioning. The only sf I’ve played is 4, so I’m not sure about previous titles. But I know for sure that in other games a 5 frame advantage jab won’t link with a 5f start up sweep. You’d need to do 5f advantage move to hit + 4f start up move to get a 1f link for other games (which makes more sense). But in sf4 you count it like so;
5f adv. + 5f start up = 1f link
5f adv. + 4f start up = 2f link
5f adv. + 3f start up = 3f link… etc.
The same math should apply for punishing moves with disadvantage on block…
I barely learned this bit while watching UltraChenTV. Can anyone confirm the above statements?
It’s weird to hear that the number of frames on hit less than or equal to the same number of frames yields a one frame link. I mean, with Blanka, I’m able to link cr.mk with cr.mk again pretty easily. Both moves have the same # of frames for frame advantage and start up respectively. But I can’t help but wonder if the recovery frames are minimized somehow on hit…
Example: cr.mk has 5 frames advantage. But then it also has ELEVEN frames recovery. Unless I’m dead wrong I would interpret that as really being 6 frames of recovery if the frame advantage really eats up the remaining recovery frames. Now the next cr.mk has 5 frames start up. So if you subtract the new number of recovery frames (6) by the amount of start up (5) you’d have a window of ONE frame to get the next move out, right?
I’m throwing a guess here, cause I always thought it was obvious, but hit advantage is the difference between recovery and hitstun. So hit advantage doesn’t “eat up” anything, it simply is there once the recovery is over. But that might be wrong, I always followed the pattern I used above.
Hmm. The frame data on USF4 shows the amount of stun as a double or triple digit number… Seriously not tryna be difficult - it’s just that the math is difficult to grasp. Paperweapons your example in other fighting games really makes a lot of sense, but I’d really like to know why SF4 is such a different animal. I’ve searched online since Tuesday for an answer and it’s been “interesting” trying to find it!
If you’re refering to SRK’s wiki “Stun” value, that’s not hitstun in frames but simply stun points inficted to the opponent with this move.
That came from the USF4 frame data guide. So where is a good resource for hit stun frames for characters?
I haven’t seen the app (the BradyGames one), but a lot of people report that a ton of things (ranging from frames to characters HP and even inputs) are wrong. I’d stick to SRK’s Wiki for now and wait for an update. Still, if you see stun in the hundreds, that’s 100% NOT hitstun.
That makes it a two frame link. If you are +6 on hit and the move has 5 frames of start up, you can hit it exactly 5 frames later OR you can mistime it by one frame and hit it exactly 6 frames later.
A one frame link would be a +6 move on hit with a move that has 6 frames of startup, you just have one single frame where the link will hit, you must hit it on the 6th frame or it won’t link.
Why is the frame math with links so screwy in this game particularly? There must be some kind of invisible one frame leniency or something!
Density, here’s something I just didn’t consider. The start up is just that - no hit frames come out on start up. The actual hit doesn’t take place until the FIRST active frame, which is also the only active frame if the moves both have the same # of on hit and start up frames!!! By George I think I got it!!!
As Bison says, YES!!! YEEEESSSHHH!!!
So generally speaking, I take it that the term “one frame link” specifically denotes that someone gets only one active frame for the next move to hit right?
I don’t think it’s screwy, you need to account for every frame, not just the amount of frames inbetween the two values.
Yes, 5-3=2, so you’d think a +5 move linked into a 3 frame startup move would be a 2 frame link, but you aren’t accounting for the 5th frame, you’re just accounting for the 3rd and 4th frames when you subtract the values.
It finally makes sense! density the visual helped a lot! Thank you!
Whenever someone says “frame advantage” or “frame disadvantage”, the recovery is already taken into account. Therefore, only the frame advantage and move start up are relevant for links. I think the math works this way because the first active frame takes place during the last frame of start up. So on a 3 frame jab, the 3rd frame is the one that hits. Let’s say we have 2 active frames on this jab. 3 start up and 2 active which will both take place in 4 frame time. Imagine a 4 frame box where you fit the first 3 in the 1st 2nd and 3rd slot and you put the 2 active frames in the 3rd and 4th slots. The 3rd slot now contains 1 frame of 2 kinds; both start up and active. Combine this with 7 frames of recovery and we get 11 total (this is yun’s st.lp). If you add like this; 3+2+7 you get 12, but the total frames for yun’s jab is 11, not 12. At least this is what I think happens. This explanation works for me lol.
ok, i get it, you have to count the zero
Yup, the “zero” frame counts as one of the frames where you can link!
Lots of people here seem to be confusing hitstun with blockstun.
You can’t really figure out links using frame advantage as reference. Remember, frame advantage is something calculated from how much recovery a move has vs. how much blockstun it gives. The formula for this would be:
F = B - R
F = frame advantage
B = blockstun
R = recovery
For example a move with 7 frames of recovery but only 2 frames of blockstun is has -5 frame advantage (i.e. is therefore unsafe).
Links in combos however are based on hitstun, not blockstun and hitstun has nothign to do with frame advantage. You only calculate frame advantage on block, not on hit.
To calculate whether or not something will link, you need a different formula.
H - (R + S) = Fl
H = hitsun
R = recovery of the first move
S= startup of the second move (before the active frames)
Fl = frames to link.
An example of a 1 frame link then would be having a move with 8 frames of hitstun, 4 frames of recovery being linked to a move 3 frames of startup. Written out in formula, this would be:
8 - (4 + 3) = 1
As you can see, this has nothing to do with frame advantage and blockstun (since the former is a value calculated from the latter).
TL:DR version: You need to use hitstun and not frame advantage to calculate for combos.
More on this can be found here.