Painwheel matchup discussion

painwheel

#1

We ain’t got one, so here it is. Once more info is known I will compile, but like the other thread, lets just talk about it.

Things that currently give me trouble:
Fillia hp updo assist. Very huge, very active. It’s not fast so it’s easy to dodge, but it makes fighting peacock a lot harder since you have to respect that assist.
Speaking of peacock: mostly just hp item drop.


#2

Reserved


#3

Some notes.

Fillia: j.HP, j.HP JUMPING HEAVY PUNCH. That thing is huge, it basically beats your air normals clean unless you are above her and it is really fast as well. Absolutely do not let Fillia get in on you, fly high and protect yourself with j.HK, hopefully you have an assist to keep her out of your airspace. Once you are up there, you have her 0 frame DP super to worry about, Fillia can be a real problem and you will really to space well to defend against her. Yeah, I’d really say this is a defensive matchup, but once you land a hit, mix her up until she’s dead, just make sure to not leave any gaps, because you will get eaten by wolf hair.

Ms. Fortune: Haven’t had too much experience against her, but her uppercut doesn’t seem as annoying as Fillia’s and her best air normals seem to mostly hit below her. You shouldn’t have too much trouble getting above her and giving her trouble. Just be careful because she can deal a LOT of damage if she lands a hit (at least until the potential patch haha).

Peacock: On her own, she isn’t TOO much of a problem, you can fly right over the airplane, the items are annoying but can be avoided if predicted. Once you get in, she really doesn’t have any options, mix up and kill her.
Doublecock: Gets its own section for obvious reasons. THIS is an annoying matchup. Don’t rely on fly because from certain ranges the butt will scoop you up and Peacock can land the hurt. What you want to do is superjump the double assist, but then the item drops happen… This is really quite difficult and you need patience. What I do is slowly advance, dodging shadows, watching for the assist. Once the assist is called I superjump forward and then fly. You then have a brief window to get in and mix her up before the double butt is ready again and you don’t want to be too offensive while it is up obviously.

Parasoul: Cannot fly carelessly whenever she has meter. Also be careful of the Napalm Pillar and angled Napalm Shot M. Don’t rush in because you will get swatted by j.HP or c.HP. Best to use an assist to cover your approach. Pretty difficult matchup but entirely manageable, mostly about being safe and just landing a hit. When you land that hit, go into a reset frenzy, crossup resets are good because they mess with her charging, but watch out for the pillar.

Valentine: Fought this matchup a fair bit, doesn’t seem to be too much of a problem, if you are above her, her best tool is her s.HK as most of her aerial normals are angled downwards. Try to spend as little time on the ground as possible; opponents assist allowing and rain death on her.

Double: While you are in the air, you mostly need to watch out for her jumping normals. Her j.HP is a pain, it is pretty much your best approaching normal, but faster so it can be very irritating. As with Parasoul, don’t stay in the air long when she has meter. Her guns aren’t really angled to be too annoying in this matchup, but be careful of the butt, it is as much a factor solo as it is as an assist. Grounded approaches can actually work as she is very slow.

Cerebella: You mostly want to watch out for her anti air throw. A lot of her game revolves around controlling the ground so you can avoid that almost entirely as long as you stay away from her. Her j.HP is HUGE, so either stab her while she’s gliding or get away with your superior mobility.Once you get in you can be very annoying, always keep that air grab in mind and don’t forget the EXCELLENT either, as long as you space yourself though, it shouldn’t be too much of a problem. Try to opt for aerial resets over grounded ones, unless you know your opponent doesn’t churn butter.

Painwheel: FLY HIGH ABOVE THE SKY


#4

Painwheel should pretty much not be on the screen without Napalm Pillar, any version of Updo or HK hornet bomber so we can get that out of the way. The only time she should be by herself is if those assists somehow die which at that point hopefully you have meters to spare so you can either bully people with her invincible level 1’s or start taking control of the match with the benefits of hatred install.

Filia’s j.HP is a problem but nothing that I haven’t been able to deal with at least from playing people locally. I like flying, calling napalm assist and then charging hatred guard on Pain’s j.MP or j.HP (both have 2 hits of armor). They either have to deal with invincible assist that covers the sky or 2 hits of armor and then normal with huge hit box. It allows you to bully her pretty nicely especially since her j.HP is only one hit. They nerfed the hit box on her j.HP from the earlier builds so it’s not really as oppressive as it used to be.

Yeah Ms.Fortune just seems like basically don’t get hit. Just watch to make sure that her head isn’t near you because it screws up a lot of normal advances.

Peacock can get pretty annoying especially with invincible assist. Against Item Drop H simply try to hit her. The Item Drop will stop if she is hit. On top of that you can also use your hatred guard j.MP or j.HP if you know when it’s going to land to armor through it and get in. Against HK bomber assist, stay at the top of the screen and fly forward. As long as you’re flying forward at the top of the flight your vulnerable hit box is too small to be hit by the butt. Painwheel is probably the only character that almost never has to respect that assist. Even if you’re on the ground, Painwheel has the shortest crouch box in the game and can easily duck under it. Her forward walk is also as short as her crouch so it’s easy to walk under it also.

Parasoul is a take your time kinda thing. Parasoul isn’t really that scary for me yet because her zoning and mix up is rather advanced and not something people will be fully taking advantage of for a while. Just watch out for mash sniper/bike supers. Take to the ground a bit more if she’s high on meter basically.

Valentine is just stay patient against air normals basically. Can’t really abuse hatred guard on her since a lot of her normals are multi hit. Her mix up seems to be mostly overhead, cross up based so just be patient and sit on your invincible assist till she gets antsy or you end up getting in to pressure her. Her special moves are pretty ass for the neutral so blocking normals and watching for throws is about all you really need to do against her right now (barring her assist also). Her scalpel super and invincible alpha blade style super can be annoying but they don’t really win her the match alone or nothing.

Haven’t fought against too much point Double to really say anything about her. You’re going to have to change your combos on her because of her heaviness I know that.

Cerebella is probably the toughest matchup for me outside of Peacock. You can’t do a lot of your normal flight pressure and her combos do a shit ton of damage and aren’t that hard to do. You basically have to play pretty flawless against Cerebella or you will die to near TOD combo or 100 percent mix ups. Multi hit normals are of importance in this matchup since she has armor on some of her attacks also. Don’t abuse flight mix ups too much on her and just be patient until you can land something. She even has a running grab that grabs you whether you are in the air or on the ground so she’s definitely somebody that hurts Painwheel’s normal gameplan.


#5

Yeah I think Cerebella might become a tough matchup. Shit like st.fierce is a hell of a normal against a lot of PW’s angles.
And yeah, you can just fly over da butt.


#6

I actually haven’t had too much trouble against Cerebella and there are a fair few Cerebellas in my area. She isn’t the only character with huge damage, it just looks higher because it happens in fewer hits, the biggest problem really is her anti air grab and a few normals, but those are not really fast. Definitely a matchup that will lead to a lot of mind games, there are a lot of 50/50 situations for both parties.

There are good Parasouls here, multiple of them (she’s probably the second most popular character here besides Double) and she really is scary. When she forces you to block a LP tear she will gain momentum and it is quite difficult to escape without HK Hornet Bomber. She is also very good at keeping you out of the air with her heavy punches and sniper super will deny your flight almost entirely. Her level 3 is also a fantastic reversal if you get a bit too mixup happy.

Problem with Fillia is she can always j.MP to break armour (and I HIGHLY suggest you don’t try to advance with a charged j.HP unless she is above you, especially with an assist or with a meter, you will get caught out of the air your own assist or no). Her j.HP hitbox might be smaller, but it is still huge, big enough to out-prioritize j.HK from anything but below you and well, pretty much everything but j.MP and its slow startup. Best bet against Fillia is to bait their assist then approach from a diagonal angle in my opinion. Even then you have to be careful of her DP super.


#7

I’ve been struggling a lot against a PW/Cerebella matchup. From what little experience I’ve had fighting her, it would seem your best bet would be to rule the sky. The massive damage is also a concern as it forces you to double your own efforts. To me at least, the amount of damage she outputs seems unbalanced compared to the rest of the cast. (Hoping for a nerf right here!)


#8

Painwheel can dish out just as much damage herself though haha and I would say her resets are harder to see as well. It is, as most Painwheel matchups definitely about controlling the sky. You can’t simply fly into her and expect to open her up. I suggest j.MP for approaches, but don’t go all in on one attack, cancel back into fly, back up etc. Be really careful of that anti air grab because it is her best bet to keep you in check. She may try to swat you with s.HP or c.HP as well, but if she whiffs them, that is your chance to get in; Painwheel has a knack for converting one hit into continuous mixups that can easily cause death.

Just be patient as with most matchups in this game and take your opportunities when they come.


#9

The more I play this game the more I see that patience is needed.


#10

The main issue with Cerebella is that execution wise her combos are probably the easiest among the cast. The chances of you dropping out of a Cerebella combo really aren’t that high and her conversions off hits are very lenient. Most any stray thing you get hit by from Cerebella will lead into pretty lax combo that will rape your health or just outright kill you. She has easy ticks into grabs SF Gief style after her combos end also. She doesn’t really need to spend meter to kill people off. Just put them in a vacuum like a strong grappler normally does.

If Cerebella gets too good she’s going to make people really salty. She has close to undroppable combos that do as much or more damage than a lot harder work from other characters. She’ll have to be one of those typical grapplers where just doing one or 2 right things enough times will completely deal with her and well…I’m not sure that’s going to be the case with all her options. Pretty much all the other characters require more execution than her it seems.

I dunno…I just haven’t personally had too much issue with Filia yet. She has good AA options but people haven’t really optimized her combos yet so I guess I just haven’t really been feeling the hurt too much even if I get hit. Don’t have any problem with her going for AA stuff because Napalm Pillar and armor can pretty much always fight anything she is doing also. Even basic stuff like j.MP + Napalm I can usually get around with until I land something. If the Filia player starts getting AA happy then I’ll just chill and wait.

Parasoul is good and all but…nothing that screams outright scary for me yet. The hardest thing about Parasoul is that she can just do one of everything pretty much. Which is nice but that doesn’t really make her impossible to deal with. No one of those things specifically seems really overbearing to me yet. Her j.HP is good but charged air normals + napalm assist don’t really care too much for that. Especially if they have Parasoul towards the back by herself without an assist j.HP should be the least of your issues.

Her close ranged pressure is standard pressure that any invincible assist with armor will help you escape. Otherwise just block and pushblock for now. She has a standing low attack and a couple overheads but it will take a while for people to optimize the mix ups from it all especially considering she’ll most likely need the egret call to really mix things up pass tick throws. Sniper shot super is cool but you can always whiff j.LK and block to bait it. Huge recovery on block where she’ll need to CSC to stay safe and not get blown up. Her level 3 is alright in the neutral but significant recovery on block for spending 3 meters to make it not that much worth the risk. It doesn’t even really do that much damage. She might as well just try to sniper shoot you and dash up into a combo.


#11

ahhh… a matchup thread.

i gtg in a bit and wont be back for a few days, but to “quote” dj:

painwheel NEEDS some sort of gtfo assist backing her so that she can enter flight easily AND so that she has some sort of gtfo from pressure. her flight is really oppressive and GOOD. generally speaking, the way to beat invincible moves is to bait and block them but against painwheel thats not so great of an option since if you bait the assist… you still allow painwheel to go into flight and protect the assist while also getting some pressure… its pretty close to a win win situation right now, but im sure that some technology will counter it.

still, PW plus gtfo assist seems like easy mode flight pressure. wasnt one of sents highest up teams in mvc2, him and commando? PW with napalm feels pretty much the same.

about filia:

i dropped double cause people were jumping over hornet bomber and i didnt like that, however, in my games against filia i was using hornet bomber. i only switched to napalm later. pillar/updo seems way better since they cant be ducked under and cant really be jumped over. the opppnent pretty much has to respect them. also, unlike on stream, i wasnt getting pillar stuffed at all it was just cleaning shit out. i need to try the filia matchup with either updo or pillar… not having either was probably my downfall.

-dime


#12

Sounds like people are getting hit by your anti air assists. In my experience, people haven’t been getting opened up by stuff like that at all. I really have to work to land a hit. Getting in with an invincible assist is all good, but then you are assistless and their invincible assist is ready. If a Fillia has an assist, you are only really free to attack while it is recovering.

It could just be because most of the good players here are using at least 1 of Fillia and Parasoul, but it sounds like your are trivializing some of their tools and overstating Cerebella. Cerebella gets easy damage, but it isn’t really higher than Painwheel’s. For big damage she needs to do work as well. Parasoul is hard to stop with simply pushblock. Her tear seems quite plus on block and if she has an assist, she will be relentless. The best chance to escape is if she goes for a jumping j.HP as that can be pushblocked for an escape. Generally pushblocking her s.HP will just lead to blocking a tear, then an assist, then Parasoul again.

There is a couple of people here who have some pretty optimal Fillia combos, but that isn’t even the problem. Fillia just has a lot of control over the neutral game and can really put you on the defensive. She has too many multi hitting normals for armour to be a really good option and if she has an assist you are eating a full combo for every mistake. Need to play very smart because of her ability to DP super on reaction to flight cancels.


#13

Yeah I feel like Peacock + booty assist is the way to go. HK hornet bomber is overrated IMO when used with most of the other cast.

When I saw that Napalm Pillar was going to be an invincible projectile that goes up to the top of the screen a month before the game came out I already said “I know what my assist is”. There’s not a lot Painwheel can’t do with that assist. Other than navigating minefields it lets her do most of what she wants while protecting her from what she doesn’t want.


#14

Best thing about HK Hornet Bomber is the insane lockdown it gives you in the corner.

My 3 girl team right now is Painwheel(either c.M or Pinon Dash), Parasoul (LP tear), Double (obvious)

Was running Napalm Pillar and it gives you a great captain collider effect, but Double Butt is great too.


#15

I really thing Parasoul has issues getting Painwheel off of her, because she has to keep blocking high, or she’ll get hit. So, without a reversal, she’s basically just pushblocking your refly pressure until either a. you miss an input and lose ground or b. she screws up and gets hit, loses her health, etc.

As for RESETS on the Princess, I think it actually matters a whole lot which bnb you’re using. I use c.HP to loop (I call it the Cody Loop.) It’s easier and more reliable than the s.HP loop, has good high/low mixup, and also corner carries further, if I’m not mistaken. However, it does do less damage, and I’m unable to find a way to put s.HK launcher into the mix. That makes the reset game a lot different, especially against Parasoul.

If you have st.HK in your BNB somewhere, I reccomend using the reset there, as Parasoul will be d/bing through your combo and waiting for an opportunity to reversal pillar! In the air, however, she has no escape options-- no invincible special or super, no double jump or airdash, and there is no assist, not even HP updo, that can reach her fast enough to save her. She HAS to defend. Mix up between right and left block-- I like reflying on j.MP, going over her (Filia updo helps here) and coming down j.HK-ways-- and, of course, use throws every now and then.

If you don’t, your resets will have to work around baiting out Pillar. I haven’t done the hard labwork (will do soon, just sick,) but if you find a Parasoul who’ll Pillar out of your ground refly mixups, just d+LK to the floor and block it.

…Come to think of it… is it even punishable?


#16

Yes, very much so.


#17

I’m a much bigger fan of inserting resets from loops involving st.fierce, simply because it leaves them standing after being hit with a move with ridiculous hitstun. C.fierce definitely better for max damage, but the fact you have to restand them with something that won’t setup as well as st.fierce is what makes it not as worthwhile.


#18

So, I’ve been recently playing a bunch with a Ms. Fortune player who’s definitely a lot better than I am all round, so take everything I say with a “Not very good at the game” grain of salt. That being said. Also let me know of this stuff is better suited to the general PW thread:

(This was all Solo PW vs. Solo Fortune)

1: Despite costing a meter, they often would use their snapback attack on the Fortune-head. This is something that isn’t necessarily an unknown, but is incredibly good at hitting painwheel out of flight and landing right beside Fortune for some silly combos. I’m not sure if you guys have had similar experience, and if there’s a normal that’s suggested I use to cancel out of flight and give me the ability to block, but I was forced to stay really low to the ground with Painwheel during flight when she had any sort of meter.

2: Air to Air Fortune’s j.Hk. Feel free to chalk it up to me being a scrub, but I did not find an easy way around this unless I was already above her. What are considered PW’s best Air to Air normals? Perhaps I fly around too much, but I find myself really close to fortune when she jumps up from fiber uppercut (Typically too close/low to use j.Hk myself, which will, from a distance stuff the move reliably it seems)

3: Painwheel’s best answer to IAD pressure? I am getting very very inconsistent results with Buer Thresher (HK) And so far have been forced pretty much to block/push block as much of the pressure as I can, which really isn’t dissuading the player from trying at it. Fortune’s also got some ridiculous combos with the head so any sort of mistake easily cost me 40%+ health.

I didn’t take notes or anything for the fights, so I don’t have organized thoughts for every little thing that I found difficult in the matchup, but I’ll update it if you guys find this useful/informative/enjoy helping me not be bad at this.


#19

I like to reset after a QCF LP, same idea but one extra hit :smiley:


#20

Those are so dirty. Combined with her ambiguous crossups I think Painwheel has the best reset game out of all the characters.