"Playing" Street Fighter


#1

Ok, I started playing fighting games competitively with Street Fighter 4, and I main El Fuerte. People have repeatedly told me this character, among others, isn’t playing Street Fighter. The reason being is that this character turns things into a guessing game. While this is true, I fail to see how having strong mixups isn’t “playing” Street Fighter, or perhaps any other fighting game. Sure, a vortex like this or with Viper’s, etc. probably has never been seen in a Street Fighter game, but can someone explain to me what is wrong with this kind of design existing in this series.

But this isn’t just on this character though. Why should any character have to abide to the designs of previously established characters/playstyles? You can only reinvent the wheel so many times.

Or for that matter, is the whole “not playing Street Fighter” argument absolute BS?


Hatin' from experience, the LouisianA Thread Live by our rep
#2

Whoever told you that…are probably scrubs.


#3

It’s BS. While insane mixups are much newer to the series, turtling as Guile isn’t and while I’m not sure someone has out-right told me “it’s not street fighter” I do get a lot of variations of “it makes you play very differently than the norm in street fighter.” Which is true, but it’s also a part of street fighter, just like el fuerte’s mixups. To be sure, fighting el fuerte or guile is frequently the most frustrating, annoying thing ever (I can speak from experience; guile has an especially hard time because he can rarely charge flash kick for fear of fast overhead), but it’s still in the game and is probably going to be a part of street fighter for years to come.


#4

Eh…well, if you play a lot of the older titles, the emphasis is on footsies, spacing and zoning and less on coin flip. Now, that is not to say that there weren’t characters who had shit like fuerte or viper; ST Vega had the same bullshitty mixup and Chun-li had her neckbreaker loops (although this crossed up only in specific occasions). But with that taken into account, your characters still had a fair amount of worthwhile buttons. Somebody can chime in with the Alpha series since I know there are a couple of characters with some shitty normals and unblockable CC loops.

Honestly…meh. big ups to you if you can play Fuerte; I would have to have to put up with that set of normals all day.

Edit: another really shitty thing about SF4 is that a lot of the nerfs being done to characters is to force them to play a certain way. You kinda had a lot more freedom in ST to make a character come to live with your play style. The fact that Dhalsim can’t rush people down in SF4 is by far the cruelest thing ever. slide cross up into overhead headbutt 4 lyfe!


#5

Actually “playing Street Fighter 4” isn’t playing Street Fighter.

Spoiler

3S too :3


#6

Unless you’re playing only Ryu and Ken on pressure sensitive buttons, you ain’t playing “Street Fighter.”


#7

Can someone please show me an example of someone saying that using El Fuerte “isn’t playing Street Fighter”? That’s a rather stupid thing for anyone to say.


#8

It would help if people could focus less on the semantics of the statement in order to make cute replies and more on the substance of the belief behind it, which is essentially: “Characters like El Fuerte heavily reward skills that I don’t think should be so heavily rewarded in a Street Fighter game.”

I agree, since it shifts the game’s focus away from footsies and zoning and onto dumb, repeatable mixups. For the record since someone brought him up, SF4 Guile is dumb too (though much less so and obviously in a different way than Fuerte, Viper and crew) and has little in common with older incarnations of Guile, who had to be a lot more active in most matchups rather than just chuck booms at you all day.


#9

I have people tell me this online and offline. I don’t think you’ll see many pros saying that kind of thing.

As for Fuerte and Viper not having footsies and zoning, I think this is a huge misunderstanding and it depends on how the character is played. For example, I treat El Fuerte’s mobility as if I’m playing Super Smash Bros. Melee. It’s more “runsies” than footsies, but the point of the constant running is to get in and to punish bad reads. So, it’s more that those fundamentals are implemented differently than in the past.


#10

complaining/arguing about ANY character and/or tactic in the game is worthless. The game is what it is, all the content is there.
use it or don’t.
deal with it.

If someone is trying to make this argument against you they are most likely a scrub trying to enforce their own house rules on the world or just whining and trying to make excuses.

El Fuerte might not play like a traditional Street Fighter character but he’s still in the game, and people can’t just bury their heads in the sand and hope he goes away


#11

U kidding bro? In ST I still threw booms all day, but more importantly I didn’t need to because flash actually worked as a good anti-air. It was more booms if they’re coming on the ground, flash if they jumped, normals to plug the holes between the two.


#12

They’re scrubs, bro. Don’t listen to 'em. You can beat whiners easily, I’ve played you enough times to know.


#13

I’m going to play devil’s advocate here and say that the reason people say Fuerte =/= SF is because you don’t need many traditional fundamentals like footsies, zoning, and (another person’s words, not mine) not thinking period. You basically mess around until you get a knockdown, then force guess after guess until you win.


#14

Fighting Guile in SF4 is certainly different than fighting Guile in SF. As of most other characters, most his normals and specials have changed in ways that it is not really the same character, it is a different one with an art that resembles Guile. That is not much different than making a movie of, say, Conan or Punisher, and turning them into selfless heroes: say what you want, those are not really the characters of Conan and Punisher. As for Fuerte, he just runs like crazy so that distance control has no meaning whatsoever. Some like lots of basic mix-ups, some hate them as it makes the game very random, while their would rather have the better player with the edge due to his distance and timing superiority. Coin tosses and constant RPS are not really what caters to OGs.


#15

They are stupid crybabies cuz Elfuerte’s risk-reward ratio in terms of damage is usually in the opponent’s favor. (Watch SF4 SBO finals Elf vs Sagat for a good example)
So doing a pure mindless 50-50 mixup will make you lose most of the time.
He needs to mix his offense between like 10 different things in order to not die while doing it.


#16

footsies arent the only way to play an spacing game, footsies are just one little part of that
elf and viper still need to play a smart spacing game to start they stuff


#17

I think mix ups and the like came more from the VS series / GG series of games then they ever did from any of the previous SF games.

I honestly don’t recall people running mix ups much in older games. Terms like ‘vortex’ didn’t even exist in SF previous to SF4 really.

And for the record, no that’s a bad thing, that’s just how SF4 works.

I’m more annoyed at them shitting on the way a character’s worked for fifteen years then throwing a mix up game in there (LP headbutt utilization for Honda, flash kicks not nailing cross ups at all).

Well whatever~


#18

been saying this for tiiiiime.

at least they had the courtesy to call him charlie in alpha and remy in 3s.

Sonic booms were MORE effective in SF2 than 4. I don’t know what you’re talking about.


#19

I’m gonna go ahead and guess you suck at Guile in ST. Flash kick is so rarely used for anti air vs. good players. You just won’t get the chance. It’s all about cr.fierce, air-to-air normals and various other range-specific stuff. And if you’re just throwing booms all day and not playing footsies you’re gonna get pushed into the corner and dominated.

Eh, it’s complicated. In Super/AE, booms have something like a 50 frame charge time and 29 frame recovery. In ST they have a 54/55 frame charge time and 19 frames recovery. The effect here is that they work more like a traditional fireball than how a boom has typically worked. The properties are nerfed, but you can go almost-toe-to-toe vs. a regular motion fireball character in a way you never could in ST without eventually having to block, neutral jump or jump forward, all of which carry risks. Add to this the fact that everything Guile can do without charge in SF4 dies to focus (the stupidest, most braindead footsie-killing mechanic of any SF) - and even if that weren’t the case, his normals are WAY worse than ST Guile’s anyway - and SSF4/AE Guiles do a lot more booms, and a lot less of anything else, than ST Guile.

I mean, you don’t have to believe me, just look at the matches:
[media=youtube]7xYLVD379aI[/media]
vs.
[media=youtube]5vNFYa-8l7k[/media]


#20

From the Fuudo interview on the front page…

Yeah, this is why people say mixup chars aren’t Street Fighter.