Points or...?

gouken

#1

Recently Climaxter posted a vid of Illmatic vs Tannotoitou (Ken). Sitting through this match I felt torn and I’m gonna tell you why. Illmatic won by a landslide by zoning and making every move super safe which is awesome. I personally am a rush down Gouken and zone maybe 30% in a match…I like to rush down or stay in f.st.mk range and beat the hell out of people. But I (or anyone of us) can do what Illmatic (or any high ranked Gouken) did, make everything safe by doing a jump in then cl.st.mk or just chuck plasma the whole match. It works plain in simple, but its soooo boring. And when I play, because we play Gouken and dont have the easy tools that everyone else has, when I win I feel that I actually won and really outsmarted my opponent on every level and in every sense of the match. If I zoned the whole time, I would just feel as if I spammed and didnt prove myself better and didnt prove to my opponent that I was better.

So my question: Points versus playing your way? Would you rather be the number, lets say 2-5 Gouken playing super safe spamming hados and making all of your moves safe or would you rather play your own style, playing how you play? I get torn sometimes because, not that Illmatic or other high ranking Gouken is not good, but they zone a helluva lot and just do super safe shit all the time. Any of us can do that in my opinion. I want that status and want that single digit ranking but I cant see myself playing like that. I would feel as if I’m cheating. I would feel as if I’m playing with a condom on. I would feel as I’m skating by on the most spammable thing in the game. How do you guys feel? What do you guys think? Points(status) or playing how you play now and building on that with the possibility of one day being a top Gouken?

(Please no conversation about how points dont matter and blah blah blah. Thats somewhat true but mostly bullshit. Any one of us would want 20kbp/5kpp…its says something)


#2

Against great Kens, it’s in your best interest to play the zoning game.
Your out of your league if you rush him down.
By all means follow through with knockdowns and add pressure but when you feel you’ve lost it, back off or you’ll get your ass handed to you.

I read the question and I feel it’s neither of those two options for me.
I want to be the best, yes!
However, picking between playing how I choose to play and taking a playstyle that beats the opponent aren’t 2 different things, if it beats the opponent then it is the way I will play it. Every match needs you to play differently.
You won’t get anywhere if you don’t zone grapplers, and pressure characters.

But if we’re talking about playing a way I find boring, If that occurs then I’ll probably just not fight that matchup, because I know I’ll lose if I didn’t play that way, Sagat or T.Hawk, some days I just cannot be bothered.

And sometime I get a bit impatient during the middle of a match and I rush in, usually to my demise.

So to recap: I’d try to be the best I could in any way I could, playing mega zoning included.
But playing that way IS part of my style, if the matchup calls for it.

PS: I’ve never seem Illmatic so I can’t comment on that.
PPS: I feel Points do mean something, people do take you more seriously as a player i think.
But other than that, not important. (Important to get serious matches against tough mains.)


#3

Gouken can be played both offensively and defensively…

I know my match ups against T. Hawk and Gief are boring as hell… Until I get a knockdown… :slight_smile:

I just say do what works… Chuck that plasma… LoL


#4

Hmmm…so maybe it is just me then lol. I dont zone T. Hawk or Gief or anyone else. Let me take that back: I throw fireballs and it LOOKS like zoning but I throw hados to damage you either by getting hit or taking chip damage so its a bit different. Normally zoning totally entails keeping your opponent at a certain distance with plasma and punishing for coming over…all of this with the intent to keep your opponent out and not allow him in. I would actually prefer if my opponent gets in. I cant hit you if you’re across the screen. At the start of the match vs Gief I chuck a few fireballs then walk up to him and alternate between f.st.mk, f.st.hk, sweep and f.st.hp…none of his pokes beat any of our pokes and our pokes are so fast and damaging that theres nothing he can do about. He jumps, I ex tatsu that ass.

Black Toof - youre right bro. Sometimes I’ll chuck a few and get impatient, rush in and lose. I could have the life lead but will still go in and fight. I mean, but thats what this game is right, a fighting game? I like punching people…but strategically. But I feel you, whatever the match calls for is what you do. Sometimes I feel that way as well but then I say fuck it and go in and fight. Im not scared of Cammy, Im not scared of Akuma, Im not scared of Blanka or Rufus or Adon or any character…I know the matchups REALLY well and feel we can go toe to toe with any character. But I play my way…I see the top Goukens fireball till their blue in the face, get a knockdown, add some pressure and then jump back out and hado again. Its exactly what Gouken is built for but because its exactly what Gouken is built for, its the easy route to me. I kinda feel like Im cheating. To me its like having a dp and having infinite meter to dp and cancel as many times as I want. We can all do this because its what Gouken IS but then we would sacrifice our own playstyles and all be Gouken clones…we would all play the same.

IAM - do what works? Hahaha. I feel you man. So to answer the questions you would rather do what the top Goukens do to be high ranking than to play how you play now? Maybe building on that and STILL possibly being high up there? We play just alike…I just cant see sacrificing it man. I want those points and I want that status…I just wanna be godlike and achieve that and not be a machine or flow chart Gouken. Chuck plasma until he jumps and tatsu him. I gotta say fuck that to that lol.

EDIT: I’ve been finding that a bit of zone has upped my points so its a bit welcomed.


#5

I dunno man, i don’t think there is a real secret to success. Matchup knowledge is there to be applied, so if one particular matchup needs more zoning, then you zone to up your chances of winning. If another matchup has a need for some mixups, you mix that shit up.
Gouken is a versatile zoner/mixup character, but even if he can be played in different styles, it’s the matchup that dictates which way you will play him to win points.
I have the same problem as you Dek, i rarely play matchups the way they are supposed to because some of them i find boring as fuck. So if I really want to apply my matchup knowledge, i’ll do it for a few frames, but i lose patience quickly and i go balls out even of that means a loss. L-)
I had the same problem before with DeeJay, and have the same problem with Gouken. That is why i prefer to play endless and not give a shit.
When I play tourneys though, I really try to maximize my matchup knowledge, because who wants to get kicked out 0-2 8-}


#6

Sometimes being too aggressie gets me in trouble, it’s nice to let people beat themselves some times…

I don’t think it’s wrong to play him offensively or defensively but it’s waaaaay more fun to stun people, and be on offense.

Hado is a great poke.


#7

Ok so I see what all of you guys are saying. It seems the general concensus is that you simply play the matchup. But thats what I’m referring to. Most of the top Goukens, they know the matchups, obviously, but dont care…strictly zone regardless. Then when the opponent gets in they can apply matchup knowledge. But it seems to me the gameplan is to strictly zone, play keep away, if the opponent gets in, fight a little, get a hard knock down, apply safe pressure (jump in, cl.st.mk), jump back to the edge of the screen and start over. It works like a charm and will get you a shit ton of points because theres never any fight and never any true risk.

Blueberry - Im with you bro, I like to fight. I went 1-2 at Winterbrawl and everyone behind me was like “Why werent you zoning…just throw fireballs until its over”. I was like no, thats stupid. I learned a lesson though…best believe I will zone my ass off next time. I play the way I play because theres nothing on the line. I guess you have to switch it up and play safe when in this environment. I kinda feel like those top Goukens look at online the way I look at tourneys now. I see but I just cant see myself playing that way 24/7. BUT I WANT DEM POINTS!!!


#8

I do want points as a status symbol, but I won’t “do whatever it takes” to get there, because if anything, I want it to be accomplished through honest play, no silly online tricks or exploiting newbies.

My style of play is straight up footsies, but I get blown up by falling into a pattern. I try to imitate other players I watch, but when I play, my overly-defensive instincts kick in.


#9

i would say that is more a character specific than anything else, but that’s me, when i first started playing the old man i used to play really really rush down like crazy, i thought i was playing a car game, the fastest the better right??? well after playing a lot of friends back home they tell me that it can be a problem, why?? because if you opponent sees what you’re doing just have to sit and wait and bannn, raw ultra or something else and the comeback starts… i think that the only match ups that i go forward is the thawk, gief and adon, i like this match up because when we are close i can out poke him but if he has a meter there’s no point on throwing hados, the blanca match up i’m think i’m either afraid or might be match up knowledge that i rarely play blankas, but it is similar to adon’s (correct me if i’m wrong) not so much hados and more pokes, but dalshim and seth i like to rush them down, why i don’t know…


#10

And maybe thats where Im torn: I feel as if that super safe…making EVERYTHING safe, spamming hados the whole matches is scrubbish play. Although I KNOW its not, deep inside I still kinda feel like it is. Lately I’ve been adding a lot more less wreckless play into my game as a compromise. Normally I’ll have the life lead and just flip in so I can kill you…get in and eat a full wakeup ultra. Lately I’ve been holding back, I’ll chuck a few fireballs and it seems to work lol…I dont get ultrad. I’m gonna try to add a bit more patience in my game and see how far it takes me.


#11

Onry thing I define as scrubbing is eliminating thinking through mashing. Throwing out fireballs is an indication they want people to move towards them, controlling the match. If my opponent can’t do anything but block or dodge my fireballs, I’ll keep doing it. It’s like being giving an axe to fight a bear, you do a great job landing hits on the guy, but then you throw away the axe because you feel like it was too easy lol


#12

meh… I wouldn’t fight a bear with an axe. lol


#13

Illmatic plays really well; safe and smart, and he does a really, really good job using his normals to zone and to punish. He’s just more Jeet Kun Do about it rather than WWE…efficiency in movement. I always prefer to be safe and work most of my game towards that goal. You know this. Ability and skill aside, I look at your style of play and my style of play and and they start from different places. I want most characters away from me and will hurt them if they get close. You want to get close to them and hurt them. Your style is more fun and exciting and in many cases more effective, especially considering the error/guessing factor in this game. That’s why I’ve been emulating you and staying closer, closing distances, and because of my own unfamiliarity, losing more. I’m okay when losses come because I’m learning my own mistakes and improving my close game…as long as the losses aren’t because of stupid bullshit like lag or my opponent being *Blanka. You are learning that you don’t have to stick your chin out to make the person do something stupid, and that free hits are like sweet, delicious candy. I think if we were able to combine forms with wonder twin powers, we would create mega shin gouken and be able to patiently rush down with super zoning!

*Side note: I don’t even consider a fight against Blanka as a real match online or even based on the SSf4 fighting engine. To all my Blanka opponents, if you win, I don’t care and nobody else does either. If you lose, I don’t care and nobody else does either. Go get a real hitbox.


#14

Speaking of points, I finally got my gouken up to 700bp! Yippie LOL


#15

Forget the points just play your way. Infiltration beat Proud Strawberry in Gouken Mirror match. So is Proud Strawberry really the no. 1 Gouken player on XBL? I think you know the answer.


#16

Don’t be influenced by other ppls style of fighting. Stick to what you feel is comfortable. :slight_smile:


#17

I have held no 1 spot for weeks at a time and battled to stay on top and kept doing me in days back,notorious for gimmicky gflip sweep sweep flip…

The more points u have the more u get copied or praised u become and lauded likewise …

Being on top was a temporary goal of which I learned a lot about myself.
It was fun fir a Sec.

Then simultaneously some things went down…forced to play wireless, ae2012 dropped , had a kid , controller broke, all after starting to feel like I and others were cracking this fool open.

Losing over 10k points one learns about themselves, or what I learned made me start to not give a crap combined w a desire to play unorthodox or backwards.

I started w dj.mk,sweep and low hado from vanilla till even today where I’m not 100 percent on His backdash and knowing I need help there till this day …

Gouken is the deepest as he requires and excels when equipped w immense matchup knowledge.

Can play possum better while turning the tables in the end…

His trades and positioning after some resets will win games.

His super defies frame data.

He has the most hidden or unconventional tech.

GOUKEN is by himself a journey…

Even the most acclaimed don’t believe in their abilities with him…

We will be better than those we know more than …

Mirrors measure your complete understanding of his strengths and weaknesses…

Do you…

fukk points.


#18

I feel you man! We need two halves of a ring and smash them together to become Gogeta Gouken. But you’re starting to really play a bit more aggressively now so I dont know how well thats gonna work lol. I’ve been really adding patient play, zoning a bit (but close zoning, none of this full screen shit) and its REALLY really been working. I created a new account on PSN on Fri and Sun I hit 4600pp. I think I’ve found a bit of sacrifice and dont feel like I’m sacrificing myself too much. I’m gonna continue to work on this “close zoning” and see how far it takes me.


#19

LOL naw man, when someone with great reactions, great SSF4 IQ and great character knowledge plays the way Im describing its like fighting a bear with Iron Mans Proton Cannon. Sure your opponent is a threat in some way but what does it matter? I’ve got a freaking Proton Cannon.


#20

That’s where it’s at… I normally will try to stay at the hado range where they can’t Focus through without being hit and if they jump you normally recover in time enough to kongo them (mostly hp kongo works in these scenarios).

Throwing out st. mp (as fake hado) and buffering EX Tatsu is deadly at that range too…

When we didn’t have 3 different kongo’s it worked hella good, b/c you mix in kongo/ or ex tatsu/cr. fp to beat their jump in attacks… so you’d rarely see empty jumps.

The range that you fight at now its the perfect range, but I’ve learned and I’m still learning that I don’t have to always go and get someone. Especially when I have the life lead and I know their options. For example, if I’m fighting Ryu and I know he is down and we have another round… . I want him to burn that EX meter on EX Fireball… so I’ll place my strats around that so he can’t have srk FADC Ultra later on.

Same with Bison, I want him to burn meter on wake up so he can’t have it for EX Scissor / PC.

I noticed as I would play better and better opponents, everyone wasn’t falling for safe jump set ups and the harder opponents were to knock down.

Close zoning or feinting kind of gives you the best of both worlds, but you just need to be careful with that hado b/c of the slow start up.

In and Out has always been the best policy… not unless you can get in and stay in which you do a good job of. Don’t sacrifice the way you play for zoning, but allow you zoning to compliment the way you play instead.

If you can detect a weakness in a match up or player, and it happens to be they can’t deal with zoning well… by all means use that as your way to force errors so you can blow them up for it. It’s nothing wrong with that… and the end of the day it’s not like you can mash… SHORYUKEN!!!

And the last I checked, no one I’ve ever played wanted to let Gouken up for free… so whether you are rushing them down and keeping them on their back, or if you are staying away and forcing their errors… I think they are the two precise ways of playing Gouken.

You’ve mastered that middle ground area that’s so hard to do… so I feel your pain on not wanting to zone much… b/c getting in and busting their ass is much more fun… plus you don’t get people dizzy by zoning them. lol