Powerful Assists, Nerfs and the Yay or Nay

So some of the confirmed changes in the SDCC build of UMvC3 are related to the nerfing of certain assists. Some of the notable ones are the removal of invincibity from Tron’s Gustaff Fire, the removal of knockdown from Akuma’s Tatsu/Super Skrull’s Tenderizer/Sentinel’s Rocket Punch, as well as rumoured tweaks to Haggar’s Larriat. What do you lot think about this? Do you really think it’s a problem to have powerful assists? Because from the way it looks, Capcom seem to think so. I remember back when MvC3 was coming out finding out about how poor anti air assists were and wondering what the hell I was going to to against pressure; well after the removal of certain useful assists in UMvC3, I’m still wondering.

Do we even use anti air assists in MvC3? Ever? Because I might be the only one but, I don’t think I ever remember someone using one in a practical and effective manner besides maybe Jam Session. In MvC2 they were used to get the opponent off you thanks to their high invincibility and quick start up time, something assists like Tron, Haggar and Akuma are currently famous for. But now they’re being nerfed, what’s going to happen? Are we going to use assists at all outside of combos or blockstrings? Because any sort of interesting properties assists used to have (even back from the old days like MvC, Akuma is similar to the likes of Colossus assist)) are slowly but surely going away, some for obvious reasons (Akuma/Tron), some for not so obvious ones (Super Skrull/Sentinel).

To me at least, the whole idea of an assist is that it’s supposed to be useful, it’s supposed to assist you in situations which you need to be assisted. Extending combos isn’t the only thing they are useful for. Personally I think projectile assists are the most powerful assists in the game, perhaps too powerful with so many teleport style characters (Wolverine/Wesker/Zero/Dormammu/Deadpool*/Phoenix/Dante/Strider etc) to create mixups with. Removing (or nerfing) properties like invincibility does nothing but make the game more projectile heavy.

I don’t know what aproach Capcom are going for with UMvC3 so I just have to wait and see, but I don’t like the idea of a game where everything is fair for unnecessary reasons… It doesn’t knock down, it gets beat out, it’s too slow, they flip straight away… Ughh. What’s the point? Assists need to be useful! Even with the current state of MvC3, assists like Tron’s Gustaff Fire or Haggar’s Larriat don’t overpower other forces in the game, they sit at a comfortable level with the rest of the top and are actually useful tools against problematic characters. In UMvC3 this isn’t going to change, there’s still going to be powerful characters and people are still going to need these tools. What’s going to happen when Strider is locking you down with Ouroboros or when Phoenix is standing there mashing A? I don’t know.

Thoughts? Just post anything related to the use of assists I guess, should they be more powerful? Less powerful? More varied in uses?

I fail to see where making a game where both heavies and zoners are terrible compared to rushdown characters (unless they’re Phoenix) more projectile heavy is somehow bad. If anything, it’s exactly what the game needs – an actual rock-paper-scissors of heavy-zoner-rushdown, rather than this Fate Of Four Rushdowns Running Tron/Haggar/Akuma Assists.

I think we have a varied blend of assist. We have Wesker-b (OTGs and helps many characters have better combos, hits low), Sentinel-a (Screen Control MVC2 Style and allows to zone and rush more easily), Doom-b (Annoying and great for zoning), Doom-a and Iron-Man-a (great for teleporters and zoners), Dante-a (Blackheart assist but better, great combo extender and can control the screen), Morrigan-y and Amaterasu-y (Meter Building), Amaterasu-b and Chun-y (Lockdown), Taskmaster-b (pseudo-beam, great for teleporters), Haggar-a (Get of me). These are some of the more notable ones.

I think we really need more invisible anti-air assists like let’s say Cammy-a in MVC2. This assist has great diagonal range, great invincibility, and knocks the opponent far. This type of assists can get pressure of you, instead of Tron’s Gustaff Fire which gets pressure of you and allows you to combo afterwards (and even anti-air opponents and beat other assists). Other cool type of assists could be Marrow-b, CapCom-b, Morrigan-a.

I would really like more assist that help you get in, even if they are weakened down version of drones. Something like Spiral-a or Doom rocks. I hate having such few options when I want an assist like drones.

I think nobody would dislike having a bigger amount of great assists because that would mean there’s more characters and possibilities to choose from. Maybe not as powerful as Tron’s Gustaff Fire, Cyclops-b, or Psylocke-a, but still good enough.

I agree with kef, I think they need to implement invincible assists which you can’t combo off(to avoid bullshit like wesker/haggar) it strengthens zoning but can’t really be used by rushdown characters. Something like shadow blade, which is borderline impossible to combo off would work I think.

I see your point, but I’d rather “nearly-to-full invincible assists” like Gustaff Fire be taken out if it meant I’d have to fight someone who just randomly calls it out every freakin’ time to land a hit that becomes a huge fuckin’ combo. :bluu:

more psimitar like assists with instant startup that just simply send the enemy flying away and allow them to recover on the way down…just dont make it so you can interrupt the psimitar like iron man and magneto can in MvC2.

Captain America’s Shield Slash has startup invul on point, but not on assist which is fuck dumb IMO

You know it would be nice if Capcom do some more interesting things , and fucking buff some character assists. Making Character’s assist that weren’t useful in Vanilla, useful in Ultimate. If Haggar was viable because he had a godlike assist, you’d think they would do this to characters that lack a way to be useful. Honestly one of the most interesting dynamics of MVC3 was the fact that Haggar was a good character despite being likely bottom tier on point.

It could lead into fantastic gameplay in ways that most fighting games are incapable of doing. Yes this would lead into oveprowered shit, but it’s make MVC3 diverse/balance for it.

I can understand nerfing things like Gustaff Fire as lets be honest that thing is practically free (might as well be new Psylocke assist), but some of the others seem odd decisions I don’t understand. Like removing the knockdown from Tenderizer and Rocket punch, was that really all that bad to begin with? It almost seems like just removing things for the sake it. I question though, now things like Gustaff’s invincibility is gone, what will it get used for?

I too would like to see more useful “get off me” assists, I think removing the knockdown from Akuma’s tatsu might push him more in that direction. Things like Viper’s siesmo (maybe) or Ryu’s shoryu deserve to be more useful as they’re potentially great assists that never get used as they should…

If anti-air assists had invincibility that would be fine, Haggar has a standing lariat that causes hard knockdown. Thats pretty scrubtacular, its like just pressing a win button and hoping someone runs into it.

I miss the days where you could call psylocke AA assist, but the person playing Magneto was shitty so he couldnt set up the ROM afterwards. Everyones a superstar with the right assist in this game.

I never really liked the whole idea of characters being assist only characters because it’s just never balanced. People want haggar to be a very good character on point, yet they want him to keep a very strong assist, which I just don’t understand. Maybe I’m just really salty after facing a bunch of haggar+dante teams. Gonna have nightmares from all those haggar invincible knockdowns into a full combo otging out of the assist like 15 seconds later. There should be a drawback to the actual assist like mystic ray. Most people know how powerful mystic ray is, but the actual assist isn’t good enough to the point where people will only choose shuma for his assist like tron and haggar are atm. The assist has a drawback, which is that of having an extremely long startup (it’s a lot more punishable than most people think, even if the person dashes forward). This is how assists should be. Assists should have to be protected and used extremely smart and not just used as a method of auto correct, where they just break you out of half of the other person’s combos, amongst other bs.

Haggar and Tron would be fine if they didn’t come out mid combo and allow you to combo after. Also I don’t see what’s wrong with the Akuma assist nerf, he still does his job you just can’t TOD after.

UMvC3 the battle of two invincible assists…

Odd that nothing’s been done about Hsien-Ko’s Golden Pendulum, though I suppose that’s a lot harder to balance than Fire/Lariat because it’s tied to a specific move. I’d gladly give up some of armored Senpuu-Bu’s assist power (not sure how; maybe it counts down while she’s out?) for better point performance. Though even then, you can’t just toss Pendulum out there willy-nilly; I still wince a bit whenever I see P. Gorath blow throw Ko’s Pendulum in that match. Having Assist Tier syndrome is boring and nulls including a character in the game in the first place for the most part.

And yeah, the problem with Lariat/Fire is that they can start combos. When they’re GTFO assists.

Yeah GTFO assists should require real work to land combos off of. If they’re not going to add good reversal assists then I guess the only thing they can do for the sake of balance is making it so Tron and Haggar aren’t as brainless to use. They’re somehow too good in a game that only has 2 good ones. It’s the typical battle of extremes that Capcom rarely gets right.

Long as Tron still comes out quickly she still pulls out a huge projectile so that’ll still be strong in the right situations. Haggar assist will still beat left right mix ups and still give combos if you’re not a lazy ass Wesker player that just waits and points the gun on the ground. Now Haggar won’t be as braindead since you’ll actually be able to amount an offense on a Haggar assist team now that he can actually get blown up with things other than c.L’s during the start up. Haggar will be thought about before he comes out.

From there…Akuma assist is still going to be good IMO. You won’t get soft knockdown anymore but I’m sure enough characters will still find dash up reset opportunities or maybe even a combo if they act quickly enough. It’s still one of the hardest to deal with assists in the game because it has insane priority over other attacks, starts up super fast, and absorbs most standard projectiles pretty nicely (even other projectiles assists). Meaning having Akuma on your team is strong for shutting down other regularly used assists. It’s just now people won’t also get 8 year long hit confirms off that assist anymore.

For me…I’m sticking with Doom beam. Comes out fast enough, gives you enough time to hit confirm without being absolutely braindead long, great for left right mix ups since both Dante and X23 are reliant on assists for left rights and high lows to safely set up and clear path against projectiles. Shuts down slow start up annoying assists like Sent drones and has more projectile durability than most other projectile assists. Only really loses to Akuma assist or Tron/Haggar and by Ultimate will only really still lose to Akuma assist. Recovers rather quickly also so the only thing I have to worry about is typical calling him in a defensive position and getting blown up shit.

Sort of related… I use Captain America’s shield slash in my combos a lot, but they always dropped out when I tried the same combos in UMvC3… looks like they nerfed that too.

tron/haggar come with a price, tho. yeah you get the assist but if they’re your anchor and you don’t know how to use them, you’re screwed. haggar has trouble getting in, tron has trouble getting in.

i guess since i play tron (and i put her second, not third), i’m a little biased but IMHO she needed to be buffed so that she would be better on point, PLUS i feel like her assist should stay the same.

anybody complaining should try using her for more than an assist.

i still feel like we got shafted when you have characters that are definitely better that got buffs and tron’s whole m.o. is done and i feel like its unwarranted. in particular her not being able to combo anything except drill after j.H and apparently standing M being altered.

tron without that assist is a character that ppl would not touch IMHO. so why then were j. H and s.M nerfed? the fuck…

Hulk is the only decent traditional anti-air assist I’ve found. Has a hit of super armor, and has been pretty useful more often than not. I think more invincibility on anti-air assists would benefit gameplay, just have the opponent air recover to limit combo opportunities…MvC3 really lacks all around useful assists that aren’t completely broken.

As hope for Tron, I think on cross up only does j.H > s.M combo work. I saw someone do it in a UMvC3 video.

EDIT: Here

Definitely agree with the notion that there should be a lot more assists with invincibility but no (easy) way to follow up with a combo afterward.

MvC2 had invincible anti-airs. TvC had Mega Crash. What does MvC3 have to keep rushdown honest? Advancing Guard is at about the level it should be (one aspect of the game I think they did really well with) but it’s not enough.

the thing is, making it projectile-heavy doesn’t make zoning or heavies more powerful, in fact I’d say the opposite since it’s mostly pixies that are exploiting powerful beam+crossup

all in all I’m in favor of more CapCom and Cable style anti air assists, especially since the normals in this game can be so seemingly random