PROPOSAL: USA and Japanese speed standards in Super Turbo should be unified

The USA version of ST has four speeds:

The US Tourney standard is 3, which is the FASTEST.

In Japan, ST has four speeds

The Japanese tourney standard is 3, which is the SECOND FASTEST.

US and Japan tourney standards hould be the same. I’m sure most people will agree in principle to this, but some reasons are:

  • Don’t fragment the game
  • Encourage top US players to do well in Japanese tournaments and vice versa

At this point I’d like to assume that everyone agrees in principle that the speeds should be unified, and I’d like to discuss what speed should be used. Should the standard speed be FASTEST or SECOND FASTEST.

Pros for Fastest:

  • Most US players are used to this

Pros for Second Fastest

  • Most Japanese players are used to this
  • Doesn’t drop frames (Fastest speed drops frames)
  • US ST community is tiny compared to the Japanese ST community. It would be easier for the US to change than for JPN to change.

The main issues I see is that the Fastest speed drops frames. I think this is a problem. We should not be playing the game at a speed that drops frames. For this reason I propose that tournament standard for 2008 be changed to SECOND FASTEST.

Julien Beasley

You have my vote. Snuck in first.

Wait what? If they use 3, and we use 3, we use the same speed? Unless the japanese version is different, there is no frame difference. Plus you can set up to Turbo 4, in some versions. So again, I don’t see how its not unified. We play on the same speed? The fact, that they use turbo 4, or vice versa is irrelevant, unless there is some speed change on the JPN version that I am not aware of. However I have played on a JPN version before on turbo 3, and saw no difference.

This pertains to the Capcom Classics Collection 2, where free select 3 is pretty fast.

its not same

The USA version of ST has four speeds:

The US Tourney standard is 3, which is the FASTEST.

In Japan, ST has four speeds

their 3 is our 2

If you read the first post, you would see that Japanese turbo 3 and USA turbo 3 are different speeds.

I’m all for this, it’s been a problem for too long


Very good idea.

Yeah, I played a few weeks ago at TGA on their Free Select 3 Japanese version.

Couldn’t time ticks or reversals.

There needs to be a unified standard because the speed difference is HUGE. Even after playing on the cab for a few solid hours, the timing for “2nd fastest” speed never came to me. It just doesn’t feel like ST being so damn slow.

I prefer Free 3 (US)/Turbo 4. Turbo 2/“2nd fastest” is garbage imho.


The speeds are:

USA plays on FASTEST
Japan plays on SECOND FASTEST

It just so happens that the Japanese names for these speeds are 1,2,3,4 while the US version are 0,1,2,3. It’s like the Boxer->Claw->Dicatator name switch. Only the names are really different.

What I’m proposing is that the USA tournament standard become SECOND FASTEST

Yeah we should definatley change it.

No. Let’s stick with the speed we’ve been using for the last 15 years. Our best players (in California) already have to put up with enough Japanophile bullshit (from yours truly, NKI, etc.) Strongly disagree with zass’s proposal.

Japanese players aren’t picky about speeds anyway (many tournaments use rock paper scissors where winner gets to choose speed.) FWIW, turbo 4 was used over there in the mid 90s.

Also slower speed helps Dhalsim sort out his air defense and that fucker is plenty strong as it is.

Whoever told you that Japanese Speed 3 doesn’t drop frames was a liar and a thief. Indeed, a genuine scoundrel. All turbo speeds in all Capcom games drop frames.

Listen, we’re all for unifying speed settings if that helps improve things. But why should the US be the one to change? We’re the ones offerring tournaments for money right? All sports have home court advantage. Why should we put another bullet in our feet? We’ve already got plenty.

^He already mentioned that the US scene is smaller than JPN so it would be easier for us to switch over instead.

agreed…too much confusion during tournament play about speed issues for ST is a hassle…VOTE for US Turbo 2= Jap Turbo 3

So technically Japan Tournament Speed, is US Turbo 2? Thats better for me imo, makes it easer to play, I played ST, on all speeds before, none exclusively, so I supose thats why I don’t notice to much of a difference. I can normally adapt to any speed, though US Turbo 1, bothers me for being to slow.

yep yep…after SO many years im suprised this was finally brought up…it even says in the ST wiki that US turbo 2 is the same as Japan Turbo 3…but lets see if it changes for the players this year

i already posted in the thread because i saw that one first, but i might as well say it here too.

who cares?

it doesn’t matter if we coincide with the japanese or with any arcade boards. as long as the entire country recognizes a certain speed as the US tournament standard, it won’t effect anything. if anything, to go back to a different speed from free select 3 (which is what we’ve all been playing on since CCC2 came out) is going to throw off a lot of people’s game.

the only people changing the speed requirement might benefit are a handful of OG players who might be thrown off from the speed change, going from arcade to console. but to be perfectly honest, nobody besides maybe 10 people tops are still playing this on an american arcade machine.

and to be perfectly honest, it won’t matter anyway due to the stage bugs. the speed will ALWAYS be off as long as you’re on Gief/T Hawk/Fei Long and a few other stages. i’m actually convinced that EVERY stage actually plays at a completely different speed due to the emulation issues present.

so yeah, we can argue til we’re all blue in the face on this issue, but the fact of the matter is that everyone has been playing on free select speed 3 since CCC2 came out, and changing that now will probably throw more people off than anything else.

The US scene may be smaller, but not every Japanese player is gonna come to evo. In fact they’re barely breaking 5 right now. So messing with the 80+ USA entrants for 5 japanese isn’t right.

On top of that the japanese have been adopting to using USA speed 3 for several years now. I never heard them complain.

And why should we be the ones to change? Does everything japan do become some sort of golden rule that we all must adhere by? If thats the case, then we might as well stop playing MvC2 cause they don’t play it and it isn’t “fair” to them.

To me, this is no point in changing this. Most USA players play on this speed to begin with, and they are the ones attending our tournaments.

If you truely want to change it then run your own weekly tournaments at the japanese speed. If people adopt it then more power to you.

Besides that, using a “stop watch” to time the rounds is full of human error. A far better way would have been to record it at 60fps and figure out from the round starting to round ending exactly how long the rounds are. and thus be able to figure out the speed.

This is a good point that I’d like to address. I mentioned it at the top of the post. This is called game fragmentation. I made the assumption at the start of the post that everyone could agree that Fragmentation is a bad thing. I think I may have been wrong to assume that. I’d like to address Fragmentation for a little bit, and explain why it’s bad. First of all, it’s not unique to street fighter. It happens in many games, from role playing, to board games, to video games.

Fragmentation is what happens when you have distinct groups playing small variants of a game. Some people might think “So what? If each group plays its own variant, then everyone can have what they want!”. This sounds like a good idea, but it’s actually bad for the game as a whole.

You see, competition breeds desire for a game. Anyone can “run their own weekly tournaments” at whatever speed they want. But the problem comes when a big tournament comes, and then people don’t want to play because that’s not the variant that they are used to. A great example of this in another competitive game is Scrabble. Yes, believe it or not, Scrabble is played, and played for money. In fact competitive Scrabble is much much more popular than competitive fighting games. People spend their entire lives memorizing the dictionary to play good scrabble. People care about the game, and they care a lot. The problem in scrabble is that there are two dictionary sets. The US (American english) Dictionary set and the World (British english) dictionary set. This causes game fragmentation. US players aren’t on the same playing field as the rest of the world, and this makes world championships difficult. The true hardcore players that play for the love of the game have to play at top tier in both dictionary sets, which is tremendously difficult. And this confusion causes a lot of new players to decide not to bother. Why pick a competitive game that’s so fragmented? This is a big problem for the scrabble community. The community loses potential new players because of fragmentation, and other established players become frustrated and quit too.

A lot of US scrabble players take the position that nohoho has articulated. “Who cares?”, they say. “The world players are coming to the US to play, they can just learn our speeds. Why should we be the ones to change?”. Other scrabble players take the position that ShinjiGohan has taken. “Not many world players come to US tournaments, so it’s not worth it to change our dictionary”.

The problem with both of these positions is that they fail to recognize that fragmentation is part of the reason that more players don’t come to more US tournaments. Look at it from the point of view of the nigerian scrabble player. He’s had a hell of a time memorizing the british dictionary, he can go to plenty of international tournaments in british… why should he go to the US where the rules have changed? This is a second example of how the game is hurt by fragmentation. This point is echoed by what GritsNGravy said in his post. He tried switching speeds and it made a big difference.

In the end, the game itself is hurt by fragmentation. This is a fairly well understood phenomenon in the game industry. Wizards of the Coast, the owners of D&D, realized that fragmentation in the role playing game market was causing the entire industry to slump. They decided to make a huge gamble by releasing their core engine as open source, to reduce fragmentation. This has been a huge success, and thanks to the open D20 system released by WotC, sales across the industry have gone up.

Now that I’ve explained why fragmentation is a bad thing, I’d like to talk about the speed issue itself.

Now some of you might be thinking that speed is a minor issue. You might think, as dXp does, that who really cares? Play on whatever speed, it’s not that big a deal. I have two refutations to that point.

My first refutation is that a this is a big difference. Street fighter is a game where muscle memory plays a big deal. The difference of a few frames can win or the the match. So it matters when your speed is off. As I said above, GritsNGravy has echoed this sentiment. I have found a huge difference when playing at different speeds. The speed change from FACTORY FAST to FACTORY FASTEST is big enough, but the jump on CCC2’s FREE SELECT 3 (which is FASTER than any arcade setting anywhere, it’s more equivalent to “crackhead speed” :slight_smile: ), is huge! I’ve talked to many players in the seattle ST community, and the difference is noticeable.

The other thing I’d like to say in response to the “who cares?” argument is that people spend a lot of time on this game, and people really do care. I’ll take myself as an example here. I’m a working professional, with a loving girlfriend, a house, a job, family, and all of that. I choose to spend the free time I have on street fighter. I care a lot about this game. I care enough that I run weekly tournaments on an arcade machine I purchased for this very purpose. I cared a lot about this game years ago as well. With another player named Apoc, we organized a gathering in Vegas that was the first internet gathering of Street fighter players. That was so much fun that I then proposed a gathering at Nickel City, an idea that Justin Ratcliffe and the Cannon Brothers did a spectacular job running and implementing, and turned into b3, the first of the “evo” series.
I moved to Japan for five years, and I became friends with my ST players over there. I found a lot of people, that like myself, played ST and no other game. I remember asking one of my best friends, a player named Yoshimi, why he only played ST. “ST is the only interesting game”, he said. I agreed with him. We played daily. Yoshimi ended up going from a crappy ken player I whopped daily to second place finisher at the first SBO.

Anyways, this is turning into a diatribe. I’m not trying to turn this into a rant, or a long winded history of my love for this game. The point I’m trying to get across is that PEOPLE CARE. People love this game, and love it a lot. People spend a LOT of time on this game. And, the community of people that really love this game want it to grow, and want it to be competitive, and want new players to learn it. I want that, and I think a lot of other people want that too. I don’t want the US to be its own island of street fighter. I think that would be a sad thing. And given the amount of time I’ve spent on this game in my lifetime, I would be happy to relearn the speeds, and my timing, in order to suit a world standard. And I think a lot of players, all over the world, feel the same thing.

Thanks to everyone who has posted, both with agreeing and dissenting opinions. I think it’s important that we discuss these issues.