the whole point here though is that we will never have a speed that matches up to the US or japanese arcade standard unless we actually play on an arcade cabinet. this has been ruled out at the EVO series as it is a console-only tournament. period.
the entire US ST community should not be forced to do a speed change because there are a handful of people who think it’s too fast. i feel bad about the OG players who learned the game on arcade, but unfortunately you have to realize that the time of arcades is OVER and we have to move on. The current speed settings are fine.
the star cup national singles event link (side note: mikado is having neo star 07 prelims next month! yay no more HSF!)
…have a rock paper scissors before the match and the winner gets to choose speed. You can’t see what speed they use in Mikado videos 'cause the pre-fight screen is edited out but in acho vids you’ll see 1, 2 and 3 come up at the beginning.
So if you want to unify speeds with japan, we’re really talking about rock paper scissors for speed select.
Wow… dXp completely missed the point. It’s understood that in many Japanese tournaments, the speed is chosen by rock-paper-scissors. What you miss is that we are at a set speed above what anybody else has beside the PS2 version of CCC2. If the top players have to learn three or more different timings for every combo, then you are alienating a huge portion of players from entering high-level competition. By giving a set speed that is comfortable for players worldwide, you welcome more players that don’t have the time to play 3 different speeds of ST all the time just to stay on top.
What you repeatedly say (Because Japan has no unified speed, we’ll play on the speed we’re already comfortable with) is, in my opinion, closed-minded. By giving a set speed that people can practice with at the arcade, at a friend’s house, etc; you are encouraging greater support for the game both at home and in the arcades. Take a minute to think about it and you may realize that this is the truth. By giving a set speed that can only be practiced using the PS2 version of CCC2 discourages a new generation of competitive ST players.
Just adding my opinion. My vote’s in.
~Jamie Fry (who witnessed Zass and Umbrellastyle undergoing this experiment. Thank you, Julien)
After reading this whole thread, I became fragmented. Now I am not an OG SF player, nor a incredible one at that, but I find that after I learned to play on 3 FASTEST, I can adapt to the lower speeds, playing a couple of matches. I now understand exactly what the problem was, I now realize I didn’t notice the huge difference, because after getting used to the fast speed, the slower was not a problem.
I however would prefer there was an unified speed.
No, I don’t think you’ve understood. We timed Ken, Guile, and Fei Long’s stage. We confirmed in our findings that Fei Long’s stage is screwed up. We also confirmed, looking at other stages, that CCC2 FREE SELECT SPEED 2 corresponds to USA FREE SELECT SPEED 3, and that CCC2 FREE SELECT SPEED 3 does NOT CORRESPOND to any arcade machine, Japanese or American.
I will be posting a more detailed explanation on my blog since this is obviously confusing.
Assuming that the reason that most japanese players don’t come is because of the speed, you may have a point.
Though I think a more likely is getting a sense in how well they’ll do. If japan feels that they can send 6 people over and they can all win money then they’ll send 6 (like last year at 3s).
In a more even game like ST, 6-8 players are not going to be coming if they feel that they’re going to waste their money on flying around the world to lose. So why would they come? Japan knows that they’re going to have a fight so not sending every japanese player is to the benefit of the players that do go.
In short, it is just not worth japans time to send any more than a handful of players to evo, so until something changes that makes it worth their while we’re only going to be getting a handful of people.
And again, I have yet to hear the japanese complaining about the american speed 3, so there is only speculation that such an argument is preventing more japs from attending.
Though I could be wrong, but I do feel that prize money has more to do with the limited entrants than what speed setting ST is at.
CCC2 can be wacky. I was just at zass’ last night with some others for a gaming session.
At one point, we were both playing boxer. We were both crouching near the corner (next to each other), and his boxer just fell down and pushed my boxer backwards about 1.5 inches on the screen. No attack was thrown, and he just fell down.
On another occasion, we were both Chun Li. I combo-ed the low forward into low roundhouse, it linked because you heard the sound effects for both attacks hitting, and the on-screen text display confirmed a 2 hit combo. But not only did the low roundhouse not do any damage, his Chun Li didn’t even fall down.
Now, I’m not advocating that we use some other version of ST. I’m also against changing the tournament speed setting so close to EVO; just as Beasley said in the first post that he’s looking for a change in future tournaments (not this year’s EVO). I just thought that I’d share some of the odd phenomenon that I witnessed last night.
it’s been revealed through zass’ own research that the CCC2 version of ST has no consistent speed settings. might as well keep it at the speed most players are used to than forcefeed a speed change down everyone’s throat. i went to evo west where most of the OG ST players were, and i did not hear one complaint about speed…hhhhhrm so weird!
also, if you think that the Japanese aren’t coming to EVO for ST because of a speed difference… grow up kids.
I completely agree. US tourneys pays 5 thousand dollars for the champion and brings people from all over the world, in a double elimination individual tournament which US won last year, BTW. Anybody can play with any stick.
Japanese have tournaments with no foreign players whtasoever (unless you count HSF), playing at japanese arcade cabs only, and the winner gets a trip to the bus station to come back home. And don’t forget it is single elimination for TEAMS. Their tournaments are more random- add to it rock paper scissors for speed - and nobody can ever know who is really the best player, since nobody plays alone.
So yeah, about fragmentation, this must be a big problem for Japan. Nobody in the world travels there to play X-Mania, but dozens of countries come to Evo. Plus, nobody in the world plays on arcade. They all play CCC2! Japan is fragmented as hell, they should change their speed.
US has a better prize by far, a bigger and better tourney in practically every way, and people here are suggesting that we bend over for Japan? No way!
I like the idea of unifying the speed, but than Japan should do it, and not us.
Really, this drooling all over Japan has to stop. Even SBO has a bunch of random sucky games paid by sponsors, and everybody makes money but the players. Japan has one great thing, which is being a country with a small area and tons of arcades, so they are pretty good at most games. But, as tournament organizers, they suck, and suck a lot. I would like to see what would happen if the Cannons decides to make Evo teams-only, single elimination, and with creepy games like Arcana Heart to be more like Japan. Seriously, the hell with them! Let’s play how we play and they will come anyways, because we have the money!
Japanese tourneys are nice to watch. American tourneys are nice to play.
And if you think CCC2 suck, another idea would be to drop ST from Evo alltogether. Why not? SBO did it, and ST is always one of the games with a small number of entrants. Even X-Mania can’t get two hundred.
Just to make it clear. The WORLD does not play like Japan. They do not play at arcades, they do not play on japanese cabinets, and I bet you any player from any country prefers to get 5k double elimination than to get nothing single elimination with a teammate. That may be a reason why Evo, unlike X-Mania, gets so much country variety. Japan’s speed is really screwed. They should all buy CCC2 and start practicing.
And no, I didn’t miss the point that CCC2’s speed is unique. MvC2 on DC is also rare and unique, and we will still be playing on it as long as Dreamcasts exist. We and the resto of the world are playing CCC2 and MvC2 on DCs. Japan is different. Maybe somebody can make thsi same thread in a japanese forum so they can adapt and play like the rest of the world.
Thanks for the well written post, power333. I wanted to quote the line that I felt was the “heart” of your post.
The reason I wanted to do that is that there are really two issues being talked about here.
1) SHOULD THE WORLD GAMING COMMUNITY UNIFY SPEEDS?
This is my first and most important point. I think the answer is yes here. I really don’t see any good reason for a “no”.
2) IF SO, WHICH STANDARD SHOULD BE USED?
I proposed using Japanese standards here, but I think that there are valid reasons to use US standard. I encourage more debate around this point. Power333 made some very good points for the use of US standard.
Finally power333, to your point about CCC2’s speed being different. The reason I think speed 3 on CCC2 is bad is that there is NO WAY to standardize that with arcade. This is because speed3 on CCC2 is faster than ANY arcade speed. Speed 2 on CCC2 is equivalent to the fastest arcade speed in US or Japan. We should at least pick a speed that makes it POSSIBLE for Japan (or any arcade tournament) to standardize with. Perhaps if ST:HD remix has good emulation this won’t even be an issue, but I do think it’s important that whatever speed is chosen be at least an option on Japanese arcade machines.
all i can say is unless they put ST back to arcade ST, which we all know isnt happening, f u all. too bad. ive dealth with all the crap console ST, and so will you. deal with it. no one cares wtf japan is doing aside from ffa. NO ONE CARES!!! we dont run single elim, we dont run 1 character only tournies, we dont care! bottom line. dont like it, dont come, plain and simple.
Watson is dead on. unfortunately we are never going to recreate the actual arcade ST 100% and I think we’ve all accepted that at this point. I understand the desire to have a “unified world standard” but in the big picture, it really isn’t that big a deal. There is no huge movement to unify the speeds (I certainly haven’t heard of any top Japanese ST players demanding that we use their standards or they won’t come to EVO) so personally I see this as a real non-issue.
I like how you’re really calm. Usually when I post a strong opinion I got flamed to death. Thanks for the healthy debate.
Anyways, your second post is reasonable. Japan is the only one being harmed by it IMO, so they should change. However, as you said, they play mostly on arcade where they can’t choose CCC2 speed 3.
My position on this is still the same. Too bad for Japan. In the same way PS2 MvC2 players have to adapt to the DC version, japanese players will have to either buy CCC2 , no big deal, or just try to adapt to a diff. speed in the same way they do at most of their tourneys. To practice on that speed, they will need CCC2, but since they are the ones playing a diff game, they should adapt to the rest of the world.
And this seems to be really the minor problem here. Unless ST: HD is incredibly fucked up, and I mean that as a bad game and not a different one, it is almost certain that this will be the new game for US tournaments next year. Japan will have either to play console or come here and adapt, and the benefits of having ST: HD are much bigger than the problems brought by fragmentation IMO, since the fragments, or so to speak, will probably be much bigger with the new game and lots of new kids playing it.